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[Feldynn]

So I've done a bit of updating and adding to the class lists today..

Hot Hatch
Just a bit of minor car shuffling between the other hatch classes and some additions, also a slight PP and tire decrease to better fit the car selection.

Econo Box
Same as above, mostly just reorganising and combining with some of the Micro Hatch cars.

Classic Retro Hatch
Formerly the Micro Hatch class, now revamped as Classic Retro Hatch.  After the Tutu the other week I remembered an old idea I'd had for running the four 70s hatchbacks together, going through the lists I found a few others that are of a similar ilk though not in the same year bracket and thus this class arroved . 

Exotic Supercars
New class, basically those really high end supercars that often have to be detuned to fit into other categories (though there is one that needs a little detuning to hit 600PP).  There are plenty of other cars that would easily reach the 600PP and I don't think anyone would object if they popped up on Supercar night but I did want to pick out a specific few exotic types for this list to try and keep it organised, also I do plan on a slightly lower PP supercar / grand tourer type for the others not listed.

[EX_stream_tuna]

sweet!

for your grand tourer idea, I always wondered if these cars would be balanced together...

Ferarri 599
Mazerati Gran Turismo
Alpha Romeo 8C Comp.
(maybe corvette?)
SLS AMG ?
SRT Viper ?

all front engine, rwd.

[CharlieTuna]

How about a "Car's We Really Hate But Feel Obliged to Run Because We Gotz Them" class? 

[Feldynn]

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking Ex!  

I'm also looking at the similar Aston Martins and Jaguars too, the DB7 / DB9 and XKR coupes I think and maybe one or two others.  Not sure about including a Viper / Vette yet as they seem more like the high end sportscars I'm thinking for the other class, along with RUFs, Nissan GT-Rs, Fairlady / 350s, Lexus LFA, such. 

That might end up becoming a more "any production sports car that meets PP" type class with a "recommended" list by the time I figure out all the different cars that would fit, I guess it could be called the Combo Platter since it'll mostly be cars cherry picked from other classes brought together under one roof LOL.

How about a "Car's We Really Hate But Feel Obliged to Run Because We Gotz Them" class? 

What did you have in mind Charlie?  Does it involve some of those really old, low power cars that barely have enough power to pull out of the garage? 

[Feldynn]

Also another new class is up, it's also a slightly new format / direction for ToC as it's a little bit of a "spec" class moreso than the others .

Caterham Tunalight R300
Based on the specs for the Caterham Superlight R300 (thanks Dude for PMing me a great link!), there are some slight changes to accomdate the Seven Fireblade and GT5's uniqueness but so far it seems to work quite well!  It's a Tunafied Caterham .

I've only done some brief testing of the actual class / spec sort of brought about by the idea I had for ToC's Halloween week event (wanted something small enough to hopefully make racing / passing fun at the Nurb!).  I ended up running probably about 6 laps with Nosoks last night, we both had very different tunes but they both seemed to work very well.  Fast enough to be fun!

Basically I ran a high / soft suspenion with a "close to stock" weight balance, Soks had a lower / stiffer set up with a more MR type weight balance, both seemed to handle well for us.  Also I had wanted to limit the trans and as it turned out the Close 6-Speed fixed trans seems to fit the power / weight combo just about perfectly, it just about topped out coming down the back straight but didn't hit the limiter (I don't think it did even when we drafted each other a bit).

[EX_stream_tuna]

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking Ex!  

I'm also looking at the similar Aston Martins and Jaguars too, the DB7 / DB9 and XKR coupes I think and maybe one or two others.  Not sure about including a Viper / Vette yet as they seem more like the high end sportscars I'm thinking for the other class, along with RUFs, Nissan GT-Rs, Fairlady / 350s, Lexus LFA, such. 

you're right... nix the viper and vette idea and add in the Jags & Astons.  They're all closer to being the same type of car than the American super muslces.

[Feldynn]

So this is the short list for the Grand Tourer class based on GT5 cars Wikipedia has classed as Grand Tourers (with a few I chose to leave out)..

Alfa Romeo
8C Competizione '08

Aston Martin
DB9 Coupe '06
V12 Vantage '10

Ferrari
599 '06

Jaguar
XKR Coupe '10

Maserati
GranTurismo S '08

Mercedes-Benz
SLS AMG '10

.. there are some good Standard cars that could / should be included but I'm wondering if it might be better to keep it just as the premiums since most of them are just older models.

Spec wise I'm kinda leaning towards a power / weight limit that's a kind of mid ground between the lightest / heaviest stock weights and the power a bit above the most highest stock HP:  585hp / 1650kg depending on what the lounge settings allow. 

Suggestions, thoughts, discussion?

[DudeTuna]

[EX_stream_tuna]

i concur

that class looks yummy and I can't wait to try it out!

[Feldynn]

Ran some test laps around GVE with most of the cars, mostly they're untuned / barely modified from stock as I brought them all new.  The SLS AMG seems to have a pretty significant "out of the box" advantage over the rest, it's like it comes pre-tuned even with stock parts (just did weight / hp modifications, nothing else) and was running a good 1.5 seconds faster than the others. 

I did notice after that it's running about 25PP higher than the others (SLS was 560PP, the others were all around 535PP) but mostly I think the better time was due to it's stock setup just being that much better, I'm fairly confident that with some minor trans / drivetrain / suspension work I should be able to turn similar lap times with the others.

Also while I was getting oil / wheels I took a look at the GT Auto aero type upgrades and I think I'm leaning towards putting a "no wings" restriction on this class.. the main reason being I'm thinking we could also have a GT Racer class too, same cars but with less weight / more power and all with the big obnoxious wings, running on Racing tires instead of sports ones.

[Feldynn]

Thanks PD for improving :fucking up the Performance Points system, I've spent a bit of time tonight going through my garage and checking how much damage has been done to the ToC classes.  I've updated some numbers already though I haven't actually tested anything yet, I did however notice some odd and worrying things particularly with the GT500 class.  Here's a quick rundown of changes thus far.

GT300 - down to 525PP
GT500 - down to 575PP
K Cars - down to 385PP
Nascar - down to 575PP
DTM - down to 565PP
Vintage Muscle - changed to 480hp / 1400kg
Classic Gumball - down to 370PP

RM 515 / 615 will require some further tweaking, possibly adjusting to be more general race car claases, currently the the Lexus IS F has moved down to RM 515.  The '69 Camaro RM no longer reaches 615PP that I saw and the TVR Tuscan RM is borderline being a 515PP car which leaves 2 modern Vettes and an old Challenger that definitely make 615PP. 

Regarding the GT500 class, after some tinkering 575PP seemed a good number however there are a few oddball cars that seem overpowered and a few that have plenty of power but about 20PP less.  Most cars range from about 460-510hp (NSXs toward the lower end) but there are a couple of oddball ones that have aroud 570-590hp at the same PP, mostly Supras I think, and there are a few Standard GT-Rs that have around 590hp but are only make 555PP or so. 

I seem to remember previously they ran fairly close at 600PP with the NSXs perhaps being slightly better than most, not sure how they'll do together now with the new PP system though. 

GT300 also looks to have changed but maybe in a positive way, the C-West Silvia now is completely out of the picture (only makes 480PP or so) but most of the others look fairly good.  I seem to remember the Cusco Subaru and WedSport Lexus previously being dogs too but if I remember right they now get a bit more power at 525PP than the others, hopefully it'll even them out somewhat.

So yeah, there's still more stuff to check on and for the next few ToCs we might be flying by the seat of our pants and doing a little testing while we race but I'm sure it'll still be goos times .

[Brindle]

Thanks PD for improving FUCKING up the Performance Points system, I've spent a bit of time tonight going through my garage and checking how much damage has been done to the ToC classes.  I've updated some numbers already though I haven't actually tested anything yet, I did however notice some odd and worrying things particularly with the GT500 class.  Here's a quick rundown of changes thus far.

GT300 - down to 525PP
GT500 - down to 575PP
K Cars - down to 385PP
Nascar - down to 575PP
DTM - down to 565PP
Vintage Muscle - changed to 480hp / 1400kg
Classic Gumball - down to 370PP

RM 515 / 615 will require some further tweaking, possibly adjusting to be more general race car claases, currently the the Lexus IS F has moved down to RM 515.  The '69 Camaro RM no longer reaches 615PP that I saw and the TVR Tuscan RM is borderline being a 515PP car which leaves 2 modern Vettes and an old Challenger that definitely make 615PP. 

Regarding the GT500 class, after some tinkering 575PP seemed a good number however there are a few oddball cars that seem overpowered and a few that have plenty of power but about 20PP less.  Most cars range from about 460-510hp (NSXs toward the lower end) but there are a couple of oddball ones that have aroud 570-590hp at the same PP, mostly Supras I think, and there are a few Standard GT-Rs that have around 590hp but are only make 555PP or so. 

I seem to remember previously they ran fairly close at 600PP with the NSXs perhaps being slightly better than most, not sure how they'll do together now with the new PP system though. 

GT300 also looks to have changed but maybe in a positive way, the C-West Silvia now is completely out of the picture (only makes 480PP or so) but most of the others look fairly good.  I seem to remember the Cusco Subaru and WedSport Lexus previously being dogs too but if I remember right they now get a bit more power at 525PP than the others, hopefully it'll even them out somewhat.

So yeah, there's still more stuff to check on and for the next few ToCs we might be flying by the seat of our pants and doing a little testing while we race but I'm sure it'll still be goos times .

This is why I needed a break from this shtuff.   

[CharlieTuna]

I like the muscle car spec.  

I think that probably all the specs need an overhaul in that direction.  (Though I would  strikethrough the PP; just in case they change it back to where pp seemed to have a more equalizing affect.) 




Last weekend's Late Show pretty much showed that all PP are, definitely for now, not created equally.  In the future I plan to make drive-ins more hp/kg based, unless locking into a single car model(s)... 


  Great!  Instead of giving us more host controls, they basically screwed some (that seemed to work fairly well) up.   

[Feldynn]

I thought I liked the Muscle Car spec too, sadly after testing I can now confirm that the whole class is now ridiculously upfucked.  I tried 450PP too as it seemed some were gravitating towards that number but sadly that's just as bad, I know the cars are supposed to be different but it seems like there's no clear way to even halfway balance the class now like it was before the change. 

Before I think most cars were fairly equal at 535PP with a couple that were slightly better than the rest but at least "the rest" were pretty well balanced, now it seems like no matter what you go by (PP or power / weight) you're lucky to find even a pair of cars that are evenly matched.

Heck even trying to match all 3 together doesn't really help, some cars just have higher PP and suffer a power and / or weight penalty that pretty much renders them useless, I seem to remember before that was also a viable option even if we couldn't set the room by all 3 numbers.

The problem I'm finding with running power / weight set ups is that I'm finding the odd car with overly high PP which usually translates to it being significantly better than the others.  Case in point being the Luxury Sedans class, previously just on PP I think it favoured the M5 and using power / weight has the same effect.. the M5 just handles tons better than the rest, I was testing at 502hp / 1610kg and the PPs ranged from about 470-520.

Interestingly when running the same hp / kg the M5 was at 520PP and the Lexus ISF was about 480PP, the Lexus handled well enough through the corners but didn't quite have the power (or gearing?) to keep up with the the BMW.  The Chrysler 300C was 513PP and just sucked balls in every aspect compared to the M5 yet was very close to in PP.

It's like the new values they've assigned to cars are completely random with no bearing on how the car handles or performs.

I'm fairly sure Ferraris, Lambos, GT300 and GT500 are still usable, Nascar and Karts too as there's really not a lot of choice of vehicles there .  There might be a couple of other potential classes, I'm almost thinking that grouping by year may be a good thing as I've got a selection of 80s / 90s cars specced for 400hp / 1200kg that all seem to be around the 440PP mark to test.

[Feldynn]

Might have a solution to the muscle car dilemma though it does include a small caveat beyond the host's control.  What I'm looking at right now is a room setting of something like 600hp / 1510kg, the caveat is "no superchargers".  On paper it puts some of the "faster" cars at a power disadvantage but from what I remember of testing a while back it did even them out fairly well so long as no one has a supercharger on.