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[Feldynn]

Good point, I'd forgotten about the Lambos!  I think there is / was an initial concern that the mid-engined cars may have an advantage over front engined ones due to weight distribute and handling, that was something Reject discovered in the early testing for the 276hp event (particularly I think NSXs and MR2s were somewhat faster than the majority of FF / FR / 4WD cars tested).  Provided we can get the restrictions right and they don't prove to have too much of an advantage I'm all for allowing them .

[Feldynn]

Some initial quick tests using Racing: Soft tires..

Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) '09 - Height Adjustable Suspension
540hp, 1600kg, 550pp - 1'05.950

Ford GT - Height Adjustable Suspension
512Hp, 1600kg, 550pp - 1'04.820

Mercedes C 63 AMG - Height Adjustable Suspension, Sport Exhaust, Sports Cat, Stage 2 Turbo + Racing Air Filter or Stage 3 Turbo / no filter
538hp, 1600kg, 550pp - 1'06.8xx - (mods = stage 2 turbo + filter)
620hp, 1600kg, 550pp - 1'06.2xx - (mods = Stage 3 turbo)
Note:  Wheel spin on most corners even with TC-5 (forgot to reset it), horrible oversteer on banked corners, LSD and ridiculous wing might help.  Could do better once tamed.

I know it's early but working with the 1600kg / 550pp so far seems to be good, not sure about a hard cap for power yet but it might even be worth leaving that open.

[TunaPitReject]

As for letting the MRs into the race ... lets test them and see how much of a difference there is. If it's not too bad, I'll probably respond one way. If it's substantial, I'll probably vote another way.   

MS

[TunaPitReject]

And one other quick observation ... there may be actually two potential V8 divisions ... one around 1500kg and one around 1800kg with two distinct sets of cars. We may not find a setting that fits all cars. Just saying.   

[Wiz]

Have you considered nerfing the MR cars in some way?  Maybe force them to add some weight or run at a lower PP?  I know this just creates more work/testing but it might be worth it in the long run to add more variety to the eligible car list.

I freely admit that this is also a selfish request as I highly prefer to use MR cars.  It's what I use probably 95% of the time when I have the option to do so.   

[Feldynn]

And one other quick observation ... there may be actually two potential V8 divisions ... one around 1500kg and one around 1800kg with two distinct sets of cars. We may not find a setting that fits all cars. Just saying.   

I like the idea of maybe 2 divisions, perhaps rather than split engines we could do it on car style, like one group for high powered 4+ seaters (2 or 4 door or wagons too maybe, like the M3, M5, RS6 Avant, etc and maybe some slower / heavier coupes) and one for the faster 2 seater and 2+2 coupes including MR cars (like the Vettes, Ford GT, faster Ferraris, TVRs, Lotus and such).  Only down side might be we'd have to put together a list of cars for each group or at least a list of exceptions like say have the Camaro and Challenger SRT8 running with the 4 seaters rather than the 2+2s due to their weight.

[Wolfpack987]

If I could chime in for a bit...

Why not run the MR vehicles separately in their own class another time?  If MR cars are allowed I wouldn't be surprised to see everyone using them after they do some comparison testing

[TunaPitReject]

If I could chime in for a bit...

Why not run the MR vehicles separately in their own class another time?  If MR cars are allowed I wouldn't be surprised to see everyone using them after they do some comparison testing

That's kind of what I was thinking. Or, if you have two divisions, have one of the divisions setup in such a way that all the MR cars fall into it naturally and allow all ... then it turns into a MR race by attrition.   

mS

[Feldynn]

If I could chime in for a bit...

Why not run the MR vehicles separately in their own class another time?  If MR cars are allowed I wouldn't be surprised to see everyone using them after they do some comparison testing

That's kind of what I was thinking. Or, if you have two divisions, have one of the divisions setup in such a way that all the MR cars fall into it naturally and allow all ... then it turns into a MR race by attrition.   

mS

Until some fool like me joins the race in an oddball FR or even FF car .

On a serious note though, maybe around a 1300kg / 550pp class aimed at the lighter / faster MR, FR and 4WD coupe types (Ferraris, Lambos, Corvettes, TVRs, Lotus, etc) and a 1700kg / 550pp class aimed at the larger / heavier sports coupes and "family" cars (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar, etc) with some degree of cross-over depending on testing results. 

[TunaPitReject]

Until some fool like me joins the race in an oddball FR or even FF car .

On a serious note though, maybe around a 1300kg / 550pp class aimed at the lighter / faster MR, FR and 4WD coupe types (Ferraris, Lambos, Corvettes, TVRs, Lotus, etc) and a 1700kg / 550pp class aimed at the larger / heavier sports coupes and "family" cars (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar, etc) with some degree of cross-over depending on testing results. 

Yeah man, I think you're on to something there.

[Feldynn]

I got to thinking about the numbers again after looking at some cars I see being put in the 1300kg / 550pp class I can see how some might say 550pp is a bit low because some of the top end super cars are close to or even slightly over 550pp and weigh around 1500kg straight off the lot.  I do plan on running some tests but the reason I started out looking at 550pp is to give some of the less "super" cars a chance of being upgraded to tangle with the big boys but limiting the really big boys so they don't get too over powered and clean house.

That way we might end up with some Lambo Vs. Evo battles (ala Top Gear, if anyone remembers that episode) and such.

[Feldynn]

So I decided to run some practice laps in a handful of cars I had in my garage, the cars themselves are somewhat out of tune (ba dum tisch? ) like I brought them for certain events and just threw random mods at them.  For the purposes of the tests I was aiming for 1300kg and 550pp so I threw on some weight reduction and various power mods and fiddled with the power limiter until I got there, some had full suspensions and wings, some had the cheap suspensions and no wing, a couple even had just about every possible addon you can buy and all cars were running Racing: Soft tires.  

So take these numbers with the proverbial grain of salt as there's likely a lot of tuning to be done and driving skill improvement that will garner better times.

TVR Tuscan Speed 6 - 1300kg, 558hp, 548PP - 1'05.4xx
Has potential, even suffered from some understeer but had full +200kg ballast.

Chevrolet Camaro '10 - 1318kg, 493hp, 550PP - 1'05.2xx
Surprising car, has most mods including aero, needs a little tuning.

Lamborghini Murcielago - 1350kg, 512hp, 550PP - 1'09.xxx
Had aero parts but comedy oversteer on banked turns, needs suspension + tuning, didn't get a good lap.

Lamborghini Gallardo - 1360kg, 500hp, 550PP - 1'05.2xx
Had aero + some mods, slight understeer at times, quick on the straights, solid car.

Ferrari F430 Scuderia - 1350kg, 487hp, 550PP - 1'05.9xx
Had some aero parts, needs tuning (possibly suspension).

Ferrari F430 - 1334kg, 493hp, 550PP - 1'05.6xx
Needs some mods + tuning.

Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) - 1357kg, 485hp, 550PP - 1'05.056
Almost no mods, could benefit from suspension + tuning, solid car.

Ford GT - 1334kg, 447hp, 550PP - 1'04.3xx
Needs a suspension, possibly LSD, surprisingly nimble, solid car.

Lotus Esprit V8 - 1300kg, 545hp, 547PP - 1'05.1xx
Had most mods but may need ridiculous wing, needs tuning.


Like I say, these are just rough numbers and the cars I tested weren't modded to an even level (beyond the weight / pp targets) so there's plenty of room for improvement and I'm sure I could've probably got better times if I'd done more laps with each car even without tuning.

I do think that 1300kg and 550PP are good numbers though and while there are tons more cars to look at I'm tempted to suggest a 550hp limit too.  I know the Lotus Esprit maxed out at 545hp and the TVR Tuscan Speed 6 at 558hp with all the power mods yet both came in just under the 550pp limit, so there may be some other cars that might come in with even more power but not break 550PP.

Food for thought  .

[Feldynn]

So I've been throwing a few more cars around the HSRR at both 1300kg and 1700kg weights and 550pp and I think I've stumbled on a conclusion, or perhaps just a confusion .  I'm kind of getting the feeling that, while I'm seeing fairly even laptimes (1'04.xxx to 1'06.xxx), rather than having a balanced field of cars with a lot of choices it's actually holding back some of the more powerful cars.

Case in point, the best time I've gotten so far was a 1'04.003 with a Zonda C12S 7.3 weighing 1300kg but I also ran a 1'05.5xx with a Chrysler 300C and Mercedes C 63 AMG weighing 1700kg (all three with some minor tuning).  Somehow it just doesn't seem quite right to have a pantomime supercar like the Zonda going only 1.5 seconds faster than the great lumbering hulk of a 300C.

So I got to thinking that rather than having two different weight classes with the same PP it might be better to have something like a Grand Touring class (1300kg / 550pp seems good for this so far as my lap times are showing, even if some heavier cars can only get down to 1400-1500kg) for the high end sports coupes / sedans and a Supercar Touring class (with say just a 600pp limit) for the proper supercars.  That way the proper supercars like the top end Ferraris, Lambos, Ford GT, Corvette ZR1 (C6), Zonda C12S 7.3, RUFs, etc won't get crammed into quite such a restrictive box just to be alongside "regular" cars.

Thoughts, comments, donkeys?

[Turbo-Tuna]

My thoughts. I know I said lighter is better, but I'll try to help out the original concept.

All the cars I list will be unavailable if the limit is 1400kg (3080 pounds) - even with full ballast
The bottom half will be unavailable if the limit is 1300kg (2860 pounds) - even with full ballast

BTR
Yellowbird
McLaren F1
3 TVRs

-Countach '74
-Tommy ZZII
-Shelby Cobra
-3 TVRs

These are the only Relevant real street cars I could find at low weight, and they're not all V8's.

Honestly, I don't think that is a big sacrifice to make for the heavier class, and it might even the weight field a bit. Most supercars, including Zondas, could still have weight added to make 1400kg. My point is that most performance cars are heavier, so a low weight limit (under 3000lbs ~ 1365kg) isn't really necessary. 1400 would be my recommendation, 1500 would be reasonable, and 1600...hell that's heavier that frickin NASCAR man, think about it.   

[TunaPitReject]

My thoughts. I know I said lighter is better, but I'll try to help out the original concept.

All the cars I list will be unavailable if the limit is 1400kg (3080 pounds) - even with full ballast
The bottom half will be unavailable if the limit is 1300kg (2860 pounds) - even with full ballast

BTR
Yellowbird
McLaren F1
3 TVRs

-Countach '74
-Tommy ZZII
-Shelby Cobra
-3 TVRs

These are the only Relevant real street cars I could find at low weight, and they're not all V8's.

Honestly, I don't think that is a big sacrifice to make for the heavier class, and it might even the weight field a bit. Most supercars, including Zondas, could still have weight added to make 1400kg. My point is that most performance cars are heavier, so a low weight limit (under 3000lbs ~ 1365kg) isn't really necessary. 1400 would be my recommendation, 1500 would be reasonable, and 1600...hell that's heavier that frickin NASCAR man, think about it.    

I've been thinking about this some more. And the bit in red is what concerns me. This is supposed to be a touring race. You don't typically see Zondas in a touring race. And yes, 1600kg is heavier than NASCAR. But NASCAR uses race cars, not touring cars. If we aren't careful, this race will turn into exotics vs. supercars. That's not to say that wouldn't be fun (because it would!!), it just would be a different type of race.

More to think about.

MS