SupaTunaGT
Gran Turismo => General Gran Turismo => Topic started by: ChromeTuna on January 29, 2014, 08:09:44 PM
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As y'all know, there's a bug with tire wear being different after a pit stop. In combination with dlrws6, we've done some testing, to put some figures together, and give us something to look at.
Here's what i come up with...
Testing conditions...
Online
Apricot Hill
20 laps, pit on lap 10
Race Hard tires
stock vehicles
tire wear/fuel consumption set to Very Fast
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2012 Nissan GTR Black Edition (AWD)
1st stint
tires......Front...4/1(1.03)........4/1(1.04)..........5/1(1.05)
............Rear....7/6(1.03)........7/5(1.04)..........9/7(1.05)
fuel remaining...1/8(1.03).........1/4(1.04)..........1/8(1.05)
best time......1:26.682(1.03)....1:26.745(1.04)...1:25.915(1.05)
tire noise...normal for both versions
2nd stint
tires......Front...4/1(1.03).........4/1(1.04)............4/1(1.05)
............Rear....6/4(1.03).........4/1(1.04)............8/6(1.05)
fuel remaining...1/8(1.03)..........1/8(1.04)............1/8(1.05)
best time........1:25.916(1.03)....1:26.453(1.04)....1:25.646(1.05)
tire noise...constant for both versions
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2010 Honda Fit RS (FF)
1st stint
tires......Front...7/6(1.03)........7/6(1.04)...........8/6(1.05)
............Rear....10/9(1.03)........10/9(1.04)........10/10(1.05)
fuel remaining...5/8(1.03).........5/8(1.04)...........5/8(1.05)
best time......1:42.119(1.03)....1:41.687(1.04)....1:41.918(1.05)
tire noise...normal for both versions
2nd stint
tires......Front...7/6(1.03).........6/5(1.04)............7/6(1.05)
............Rear....10/9(1.03).........10/9(1.04).........10/10(1.05)
fuel remaining...5/8(1.03)..........5/8(1.04)............5/8(1.05)
best time........1:41.899(1.03)....1:41.937(1.04)....1:42.246(1.05)
tire noise...normal for both versions
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M4 Coupe (FR)
1st stint
tires......Front...5/3(1.03)........5/2(1.04)...........6/3(1.05)
............Rear....8/6(1.03)........7/6(1.04)...........9/8(1.05)
fuel remaining...1/4(1.03).........1/4(1.04)...........1/4(1.05)
best time......1:27.570(1.03)....1:26.731(1.04)....1:27.219(1.05)
tire noise...normal for both versions
2nd stint
tires......Front...5/3(1.03).........5/2(1.04)............6/3(1.05)
............Rear....6/3(1.03).........6/3(1.04)............7/5(1.05)
fuel remaining...1/4(1.03)..........1/4(1.04)............1/4(1.05)
best time........1:27.499(1.03)....1:26.673(1.04)....1:27.291(1.05)
tire noise...constant for both versions
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Red Bull X2014 Junior (MR?)
1st stint
tires......Front...8/7(1.04)
............Rear....9/8(1.04)
fuel remaining...1/2(1.04)
best time......1:15.595(1.04)
tire noise... :-\ and who cares, engine sounds awesome
2nd stint
tires......Front...8/7(1.04)
............Rear....9/8(1.04)
fuel remaining...1/2(1.04)
best time........1:15.101(1.04)
tire noise... :-\
As you can see, the GTR, and M4 had speedy tire wear on the rear for their 2nd stints, while the Fit(FF), had pretty much the same wear across the board. The RB Jr is the poster child for consistency.
Most of the lap times are close enough, to where I don't see any real relevance, except for the M4, that's a pretty good difference. Who knows what that may, or may not mean, if anything.
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Honda HSV Base Race Car
1st stint
tires......Front...8/6(1.05)
............Rear....9/8(1.05)
fuel remaining...1/8(1.05)
best time........1:17.604(1.05)
tire noise... normal
2nd stint
tires......Front...8/6(1.05)
............Rear....8/6(1.05)
fuel remaining...1/8(1.05)
best time........1:18.877(1.05)---Not sure what happened here. Car felt fine, but absolutely could not run another 1:17. :-\
tire noise... constant
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Here's dlrws6's post copy/pasted from another thread...
Here are my current test numbers. Keep in mind all testing was done on Apricot Hill with Racing hard tires.
FF
07 VW Scirosucco two 10 lap stints v1.03
Stint one 5, 3 front 8, 7 rear
Stint two 4, 1* front 9, 7 rear
*I don’t know if tires go to 0. This one felt flat as soon as it hit 1 halfway through the last lap.
I have not reviewed lap times yet.
4WD
Subaru S206 NBR Challenge something: two 10 lap stints v1.04
Stint One 6, 3 front 8, 7 rear, best lap 1:31.656*
Stint Two 5, 3 front 8, 6 rear, best lap 1:30.741
*I figured this was a fluke just one to many mistakes. I restarted and did another five laps on the first set of tires and ran a 1:30.900. I plan to run this one again. But the car felt like it had more grip and generally faster on the second stint.
On a side note this car is an awesome car to drive and I hate 4WD cars.
FR
00’ Camaro SS two 10 lap stints v1.04
Stint One 5, 2 front 8, 7 rear best lap 1:32.430
Stint Two 5, 3 front 6, 5 rear best lap 1:32.740
Finally as a consistency test and a quick comparison of the game versions I ran several 8 lap races with the same Camaro. Here are the results tire wear only.
Race 1. V 1.03
S1 8,6 front 9, 9 rear
S2 8,7 front 8,8 rear
Race 2.
S1 8,8 front 9,9 rear
S2 8,7 front 9,8 rear
Race 3:
S1 8,7 front 9,9 rear
S2 8,8 front 9,8 rear
Race 4 V1.04
S1 8,8 front 9,9 rear
S2 8,8 front 9,8 rear
Race 5
S1 8,6 front 9,9 rear (I made a few mistakes this stint)
S2 8,7 front 9,8 rear
Its harder to see with the shorter lap count but the rear tires consistently wore quicker on the second stint compaired to the first, without a similar increase in the fronts.
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{old}
I should have more to add by the end of the weekend. For the next batch I'll post in the same format you used in the first post. I also plan on setting aside a set of cars specifically for testing this for each game update... Well at least until its fixed.
{old}
To keep all results near the front of the thread.
V1.05 results
20 laps Online Race at Apricot Hill, weather fixed, tire/fuel wear very fast and fuel numbers based on 101 liter fuel tank. (It takes 101 liters to fill a completely empty tank per the pit stop window. All cars appear to be equipped with a 101 liter fuel cell instead of their proper fuel tanks. (kinda a shame)
FF
Acura Integra Type R
Stint One
Tires Front 6, 5
Rear 10, 10
Best lap 1:37.268
Fuel capacity 52 liters
Stint Two
Tires Front 5, 4
Rear 10, 10
Best lap 1:36.956
Fuel Capacity 55 liters
the Tires fell off approximately 1.5 laps sooner on the second stint than the first.
4WD
Audi TT 1.8 00'
Stint One
Tires Front 6, 4
Rear 10, 9
Best lap 1:36.995
Fuel Capacity ~49 liters (pit stop glitch)
Stint Two
Tires Front 4, 2
Rear 10, 9
Best Lap 1:38.297
Fuel Capacity 47 liters
the Tires fell off approximately 2 laps sooner on the second stint than the first.
During both races on the first pit stop I did not get the pit stop window to choose tires and fuel. In both cases I coasted in with no hands or feet making contact with a controller.
I'll add more when I have time to test.
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I used the Tommy Kaira zzII at 10 laps of Suzuka. First off this car is fantastic in GT6. I did not alter it at all, if I remember correctly it has 580pp and blows away the competition. I also used this car for the 20 miles at Willow Springs. It made it easy to get the 1% of fuel left trophy.
Anyway 10 laps of Suzuka. First stint of 8 laps tires front 3 rear 7. I went so deep into the race there were only 2 laps left, but at least the wear was equal at front 9 rear 9 after the stop.
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Well and some good news. Back on Friday I did 450 miles in an FGT set up for Undy. I made several pit stops and had even tire wear and no other sign of the pit stop bug. I even did a 20 lap, very fast fuel/wear and ended up with equal numbers.
Stint One 8, 6 front 6, 3 rear and a best lap of 41.404
Stint Two 8, 6 front 6, 3 rear and a best lap of 41.353
On the down side, I tried to do more testing and I think I broke it worse.
Instead of doing just a 20 lap online race for the test. I did a 5 minutes qualifying session followed by a 21 lap race. The 5 minute session was to warm up for consistence sake and the 21 laps allow me to run two 10 lap stints and pit to get an accurate fuel rating.
Long story long I tried three times and my first pit stop, and only first, would not go right. The tire/fuel window would not pop up. My car would automatically stop get some tires and I guess the game recommended fuel and then continue on its way. ???
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Well and some good news. Back on Friday I did 450 miles in an FGT set up for Undy. I made several pit stops and had even tire wear and no other sign of the pit stop bug. I even did a 20 lap, very fast fuel/wear and ended up with equal numbers.
Stint One 8, 6 front 6, 3 rear and a best lap of 41.404
Stint Two 8, 6 front 6, 3 rear and a best lap of 41.353
On the down side, I tried to do more testing and I think I broke it worse.
Instead of doing just a 20 lap online race for the test. I did a 5 minutes qualifying session followed by a 21 lap race. The 5 minute session was to warm up for consistence sake and the 21 laps allow me to run two 10 lap stints and pit to get an accurate fuel rating.
Long story long I tried three times and my first pit stop, and only first, would not go right. The tire/fuel window would not pop up. My car would automatically stop get some tires and I guess the game recommended fuel and then continue on its way. ???
First, I'm sorry I took a nap on Saturday before your practice session and completely missed it.
Second, I hear you have to coast into pits to get the pit selection window to pop up.
"If your foot is on the accelerator pedal when the computer catches your car in the pits, the selection box will not come up."
http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/%E2%97%86-s-n-a-i-l-enduro-racing-season-15-starts-february-8th.255685/page-115#post-9289806 (http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/%E2%97%86-s-n-a-i-l-enduro-racing-season-15-starts-february-8th.255685/page-115#post-9289806)
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First, I'm sorry I took a nap on Saturday before your practice session and completely missed it.
Second, I hear you have to coast into pits to get the pit selection window to pop up.
"If your foot is on the accelerator pedal when the computer catches your car in the pits, the selection box will not come up."
http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/%E2%97%86-s-n-a-i-l-enduro-racing-season-15-starts-february-8th.255685/page-115#post-9289806 (http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/%E2%97%86-s-n-a-i-l-enduro-racing-season-15-starts-february-8th.255685/page-115#post-9289806)
It happens, but it was a productive test. Soks hung out for a while and we got some decent drafting practice in. Also, I've got a hand full of notes, on fuel economy, pit schedules etc. I think its going to be a pretty awesome race if the field is big enough. Possibly better than the last two. With the real draft setting passing takes more work and a little strategy. I'm sure I'll be out on the track again soon. I just don't seem to get tired of the FGT at Indy.
In regards to the pit stops. I guess that could be it, but I thought my foot was off the gas. I'll have to try again.
In regards to the
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dlrws6,
Have you tried any of this since the 1.05 update? I hear people state that the bug is not fixed, and I would tend to believe them. I wonder if the "Undy" car simply isn't heavy enough to show the flaws?
Anyway, I think I'm onto what the real problem is. I think it's a problem with the code in the pit-stop referencing the incorrect tire "type" and replacing a Racing Hard tire from one tire type with a Racing Hard from an older tire type.
The tire model is improved over time, and that results in creation of additional types of tires that exibit different characteristics.
I think a tire change was made even after the release of GT6, and so there is a chance (and I have a strong hunch about this) that the tires you can equip to your cars changed to the new tire type included in that update, but that the code that determines which type of tire is fitted to cars after pitstops was not remapped to the new tire type.
It's putting on a RH "class" tire, but may be putting on a "type A" when it should be "type B".
A simple fix, but I would like to prove this is correct. We may be able to pass this on to the right people and fix the problem for them (even though we shouldn't need to)
What I want to find, and maybe someone can help with, is was there a specific update of GT6 that either officially or unofficially "made tires quieter"? If so, I'd like to know which one so that I can possibly roll-back my install and prove that it occured after that update.
We may not have been very far into doing longer events and testing tires by the time that happened, so we may not have3 noticed that "tires after pitstops were broken" by the update.
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It was present very early on. I noticed it the first time I ran the mini enduros in the career. I probably made it to those races within the first two weeks of the game's launch.
If it is somehow changing tire type, it's only the rear, and only some cars. The effected car becomes looser in handling, and as you can see from the tests, wear out the rears faster.
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It was present very early on. I noticed it the first time I ran the mini enduros in the career. I probably made it to those races within the first two weeks of the game's launch.
If it is somehow changing tire type, it's only the rear, and only some cars. The effected car becomes looser in handling, and as you can see from the tests, wear out the rears faster.
It's not just the rear, it's all the way around. Something I noticed because I had to pay enough attention to it to be able to counter it in order to win the mini enduro at Pisspot Hill and Suzie Cue. All 4 tires will ware at an accelerated rate, it's only more pronounced in the rear.
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It was present very early on. I noticed it the first time I ran the mini enduros in the career. I probably made it to those races within the first two weeks of the game's launch.
If it is somehow changing tire type, it's only the rear, and only some cars. The effected car becomes looser in handling, and as you can see from the tests, wear out the rears faster.
It's not just the rear, it's all the way around. Something I noticed because I had to pay enough attention to it to be able to counter it in order to win the mini enduro at Pisspot Hill and Suzie Cue. All 4 tires will ware at an accelerated rate, it's only more pronounced in the rear.
It may depend on the car used, but as you can see from the ones I tested in the first post, front tire wear differences were minimal.
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It was present very early on. I noticed it the first time I ran the mini enduros in the career. I probably made it to those races within the first two weeks of the game's launch.
If it is somehow changing tire type, it's only the rear, and only some cars. The effected car becomes looser in handling, and as you can see from the tests, wear out the rears faster.
It's not just the rear, it's all the way around. Something I noticed because I had to pay enough attention to it to be able to counter it in order to win the mini enduro at Pisspot Hill and Suzie Cue. All 4 tires will ware at an accelerated rate, it's only more pronounced in the rear.
It may depend on the car used, but as you can see from the ones I tested in the first post, front tire wear differences were minimal.
didn't someone figure out that it depends more on the drivetrain of the car? That, the DRIVE tires wear faster after the pit? For AWD, fronts see more wear just because they are doing DRIVE and Braking/Turning -- being pushed harder than the rears.
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It was present very early on. I noticed it the first time I ran the mini enduros in the career. I probably made it to those races within the first two weeks of the game's launch.
If it is somehow changing tire type, it's only the rear, and only some cars. The effected car becomes looser in handling, and as you can see from the tests, wear out the rears faster.
It's not just the rear, it's all the way around. Something I noticed because I had to pay enough attention to it to be able to counter it in order to win the mini enduro at Pisspot Hill and Suzie Cue. All 4 tires will ware at an accelerated rate, it's only more pronounced in the rear.
It may depend on the car used, but as you can see from the ones I tested in the first post, front tire wear differences were minimal.
didn't someone figure out that it depends more on the drivetrain of the car? That, the DRIVE tires wear faster after the pit? For AWD, fronts see more wear just because they are doing DRIVE and Braking/Turning -- being pushed harder than the rears.
Look at the first post's test results, and you tell me.
If I can get some free time, I'll test those same cars again, and see if anything changed. I may throw in the Honda HSV as well, just to get another race car in there.
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It was present very early on. I noticed it the first time I ran the mini enduros in the career. I probably made it to those races within the first two weeks of the game's launch.
If it is somehow changing tire type, it's only the rear, and only some cars. The effected car becomes looser in handling, and as you can see from the tests, wear out the rears faster.
It's not just the rear, it's all the way around. Something I noticed because I had to pay enough attention to it to be able to counter it in order to win the mini enduro at Pisspot Hill and Suzie Cue. All 4 tires will ware at an accelerated rate, it's only more pronounced in the rear.
It may depend on the car used, but as you can see from the ones I tested in the first post, front tire wear differences were minimal.
There may also be a correlation between the front ware and the loss of rear grip making the ware less evident when not compensating for the increased ware. I was unable to win those races due to tire ware and was forced to compensate, it seems feasible that the reduced rear bite and acceleration capacity reduces stress on the front tires due to lower cornering speed. Something that goes out the window once the rear fade is accounted for, it is then that the front acceleration becomes visible. As I type I am going through the replay from when I actually won the race to reconfirm the numbers so I'll have more in fifteen to twenty min and unless my memory is failing me and I am wrong or some unforseeable issue I'll have a replay to go with it.
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It was present very early on. I noticed it the first time I ran the mini enduros in the career. I probably made it to those races within the first two weeks of the game's launch.
If it is somehow changing tire type, it's only the rear, and only some cars. The effected car becomes looser in handling, and as you can see from the tests, wear out the rears faster.
It's not just the rear, it's all the way around. Something I noticed because I had to pay enough attention to it to be able to counter it in order to win the mini enduro at Pisspot Hill and Suzie Cue. All 4 tires will ware at an accelerated rate, it's only more pronounced in the rear.
It may depend on the car used, but as you can see from the ones I tested in the first post, front tire wear differences were minimal.
There may also be a correlation between the front ware and the loss of rear grip making the ware less evident when not compensating for the increased ware. I was unable to win those races due to tire ware and was forced to compensate, it seems feasible that the reduced rear bite and acceleration capacity reduces stress on the front tires due to lower cornering speed. Something that goes out the window once the rear fade is accounted for, it is then that the front acceleration becomes visible. As I type I am going through the replay from when I actually won the race to reconfirm the numbers so I'll have more in fifteen to twenty min and unless my memory is failing me and I am wrong or some unforseeable issue I'll have a replay to go with it.
What I tried to do in everyone of my tests, was run fast, but in control. I wasn't trying to set lap records, I was running an endurance race. Keeping that in mind, knowing my second stint tires would be less grippy. I avoided wheel spin, and sliding to keep my tests as pure as possible.
Also, offline results may differ from online, but I was experiencing the same on both.
Also, also, what car was you using at Apricot Hill? The Honda HSV makes it 10laps, actually pitting at the end of 9, because of fuel. Which means you only have to do 5 laps on the shitty 2rd stint tires. Very easy win, as I've done it numerous times, just for fun.
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I'm uploading the replay to youtube now, hopefully a 20 min vid won't be an issue.
Ok that was just fucking weird.....
All right, when I ran this race I recorded, it was my third attempt, I was not paying attention to my tires or fuel when I pitted in, I was pitting on a time frame which was after the 10 min mark. I went in after the eleven min mark, once I made the command for my tires and fuel I then looked at my tires and saw 8 - 7 on the front and 8 - 8 on the rear. While watching the replay I noticed I had significantly lower tire life when I entered pit road, it changed upon my entry to pit road.
That said I might be wrong, either way that is an interesting piece of information.
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It was present very early on. I noticed it the first time I ran the mini enduros in the career. I probably made it to those races within the first two weeks of the game's launch.
If it is somehow changing tire type, it's only the rear, and only some cars. The effected car becomes looser in handling, and as you can see from the tests, wear out the rears faster.
It's not just the rear, it's all the way around. Something I noticed because I had to pay enough attention to it to be able to counter it in order to win the mini enduro at Pisspot Hill and Suzie Cue. All 4 tires will ware at an accelerated rate, it's only more pronounced in the rear.
It may depend on the car used, but as you can see from the ones I tested in the first post, front tire wear differences were minimal.
There may also be a correlation between the front ware and the loss of rear grip making the ware less evident when not compensating for the increased ware. I was unable to win those races due to tire ware and was forced to compensate, it seems feasible that the reduced rear bite and acceleration capacity reduces stress on the front tires due to lower cornering speed. Something that goes out the window once the rear fade is accounted for, it is then that the front acceleration becomes visible. As I type I am going through the replay from when I actually won the race to reconfirm the numbers so I'll have more in fifteen to twenty min and unless my memory is failing me and I am wrong or some unforseeable issue I'll have a replay to go with it.
What I tried to do in everyone of my tests, was run fast, but in control. I wasn't trying to set lap records, I was running an endurance race. Keeping that in mind, knowing my second stint tires would be less grippy. I avoided wheel spin, and sliding to keep my tests as pure as possible.
Also, offline results may differ from online, but I was experiencing the same on both.
Also, also, what car was you using at Apricot Hill? The Honda HSV makes it 10laps, actually pitting at the end of 9, because of fuel. Which means you only have to do 5 laps on the shitty 2rd stint tires. Very easy win, as I've done it numerous times, just for fun.
BMW M3 GT 2 Base model 11
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I'll add what I can my lunch time is limited...
I'm not aware of any change to the squeal sound made by the glitching tires through the various updates. It has always been the same for me which I believe would cover versions 1.02 to 1.04. I don't believe I had progressed enough to test 1.01. Also, I will not be able to compaire 1.04 to 1.05 as far as sound goes. I've made some significant upgrades to my hometheater system since I last played. Safe to say everything will sound louder now. :laugh
I am curious about v 1.00. Or in other words the retail disk version without updates. I have not seen any evidence that it has ever been tested.
So far I have not tested 1.05 but I've got the cars lined up to do so. I had hoped to do some over my vacation but I could not get motivated. I think I needed a break after marathoning the last half of WindWaker. :D
Regarding which tires are affected. I'm convinced that it is the drive tires, subject to the parameters of each car. In testing, I've tried to FWD cars the Acura Integra type R and the VW I posted in the first tests. The VW clearly wore out the front tires quicker on the second stint. With the Type R, the differences were not as sever but they were still present. (I have not posted numbers because I had other pit stop issues that, at least to me, invalidated the test from a reporting stand point. i.e. no pit in dialog box)
Crap times up...
I have a long list of things I still want to test including more with the FGT. Give me a few days and let me see if I can talk myself back into doing some more testing.
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Youtube cut the last min off my vid but that's ok, it was only about 10 sec of race and about a min of cool down and my shutting down the camera.
http://youtu.be/0Y96HfiB7ys (http://youtu.be/0Y96HfiB7ys)
But yeah, now that I noticed the strange behavior of the tires on pit road when confirming my stop, the front tires seem to actually ware slower but I am going to have to watch this one again a few more times on the Playstation to really get a look at it.
That said, I started that race with medium on the back and hard on the front because in my previous attempts the car devoured the front tires in what I thought was a bit unnatural way, I'm a little surprised to see them ware evenly on the second stint.
That said, if I may pitch another theory:
Perhaps it's not the second stint that is wrong but the first and the rear tires are simply sticking too much not wareing properly and lasting too long?
How many tests have been conducted involving more than 2 stints?
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How many tests have been conducted involving more than 2 stints?
From what I've tested, every set of tires from the first pit stop on, are the same. I've done runs, and pitted 5 times, with no other set of tires acting like the first. It is possible the first set is "wrong", but it doesn't really matter which set is wrong. None of them should be.
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Hard to believe the game is over three months old and this isn't fixed. I can't remember the last time I was racing and I don't miss it.
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Added my 1.05 test results to the OP. The numbers are all over the place, looking at all 3 test. ^-^
I started to run the RB Jr. again, but I had run nearly 100 laps steady, I'll save it for another time.
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I've added my first 1.05 results to the front page as well. Still not quite as organized as chromes. :) I agree that it could be a matter of prior physics tire vs. new physics tire but I could not say for certain which is right and which is wrong. Although in some ways the post pit stop tires remind me more of the tires in GT5.
I've also tried multiple pit stops to see if each set is different and as far as I can tell the results are the same as the others. The set you start the race with is the only set of tires that are different. I guess its a good thing, that right or wrong, at least the first pit stop the tires become consistent. ::) I guess in an enduro you could do one parade lap and make every one pit on lap one and then start the race.
Also from one comment about the FGT I don't think weight plays an issue. The Redbulls and the Rocket are both, almost or just as, light weight as the FGT and they both appear to suffer from the glitch.
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Thanks Chrome and dlrws for compiling these numbers!
I sent a report about this issue in tonight using your numbers, in case the problem has been overlooked, for whatever reason. (I can't image how it could be missed with it being discussed everywhere, but it hasn't been fixed, so I will try to give it a hand.)
On the other hand, we clearly demonstrated the random position starts for them last night during MNR, so hopefully these two obvious problems get fixed quickly.
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Thanks Chrome and dlrws for compiling these numbers!
I sent a report about this issue in tonight using your numbers, in case the problem has been overlooked, for whatever reason. (I can't image how it could be missed with it being discussed everywhere, but it hasn't been fixed, so I will try to give it a hand.)
On the other hand, we clearly demonstrated the random position starts for them last night during MNR, so hopefully these two obvious problems get fixed quickly.
Thanks for submitting that. At least then we'll know for certain it is known. I suspect they will be able to fix it fast once the right person sits down to tackle it.
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Thanks Chrome and dlrws for compiling these numbers!
I sent a report about this issue in tonight using your numbers, in case the problem has been overlooked, for whatever reason. (I can't image how it could be missed with it being discussed everywhere, but it hasn't been fixed, so I will try to give it a hand.)
On the other hand, we clearly demonstrated the random position starts for them last night during MNR, so hopefully these two obvious problems get fixed quickly.
Thanks for submitting that. At least then we'll know for certain it is known. I suspect they will be able to fix it fast once the right person sits down to tackle it.
:stoopid:
Thank you very much MGT for forwarding this on.
I wish/hope that it would be a quick fix, but my gut feeling is they've known about it for some time and that if it was a quick fix it would have already been fixed. I've wondered since the beginning if the issue lies within the coding of the individual cars and not the, for lack of a better term, the game engine.
Also, on a side note, I'm hoping I'll get a chance in the near future to put all my notes in a cleaner easier to read format.
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Unless you figure out the best way to handle the tire change, just to make use of your knowledge, then I wouldn't put too much more effort into it. Since PD has been made aware of the issue, once and for all, it is up to them to fix it.
The problem is that every time I get to this point of directly having to describe a problem to them, its as if they have no clue that it is even happening. That is why I keep on sending in bug reports, even though they don't respond about them, therefore I have no idea what effect the reports have other than seeing the fixes show up - eventually. It is pretty disheartening, sometimes. However, a change is coming to help make this sort of communication with them a lot better for all of us, if it works out as I hope it should.
In the meantime, the better a problem is described, the easier it is for me to point it out to them.
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I guess I feel like beating a dead horse...
I'm just about sold on the idea that the tire glitch is on a car by car basis. I've been looking over other forums and their test results and I now suspect that there are cars in the game that are immune. I've currently got a short list to test based on results from other sites.
To try and throw a positive twist to a sucky situation, if any one thinks they've found a car that does not show signs of the extreme tire wear, post up the make and model and lets test it and see if we can come to a consensus that it is or is not immune to the bug.
I know it may be a long shot and I have no interest nor the funds to test ever car in game. But even if we find a short list of functioning cars it would give us some options for running longer races.
Just please no generalizations like all front drive cars or all miatas :laugh
I know... it's a very long shot
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you could be onto something Feld. I been testing a FalconXR for an evnet with another group, you cannot warm up the back tires, even after a pit stop
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Attached is a screen shot of a guy at GTP tests, and thoughts on this subject. I think it makes some sense.
Long story short, he thinks the pit stop bug might be related to the tire width bug we had early in the game.
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wow, he really could be on to something. His data and his theory intersect with my theory, which was that it was fitting the correct tire, but the wrong sub-type of tire. The main correction being that it's possibly fitting the correct tire class/subclass, but not the correct wheel size and so less of a contact patch. That would result in more noise and less grip, more heat and more wear!
It is extremely plausible that when PD fixed the tire width bug at the source where you actually fit the wheels on the car, they did not realize a similar fix needed to be applied to the pit-stops.
I'm going to msg MastrGT to make sure he sees your post, Chrome!
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OK, I saved a copy of the screenshot, however, there are changes happening at the PSN now that will likely affect how I can or should report bugs. I hope to have this cleared up shortly, at least by tomorrow. Regardless, I will send this in ASAP.
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In the mean time I'll go through some of my replays with a fine tooth camera and see if the idea can be confirmed or denied visually.
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I don't think it is the case. At least not visually speaking. I've taken photos of the 69 Camaro race car that I can post later. Also the 2000 Camaro SS which I have been using as a test car has same size tires front and back. I also question his results since he shows no info regarding tire wear. I want to try and duplicate his results.
I might should also dig up my GTP user id and password. (http://i.imgur.com/LmjyBgx.gif)
More later gotta work now.
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I don't think it is the case. At least not visually speaking. I've taken photos of the 69 Camaro race car that I can post later. Also the 2000 Camaro SS which I have been using as a test car has same size tires front and back. I also question his results since he shows no info regarding tire wear. I want to try and duplicate his results.
I might should also dig up my GTP user id and password. (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/lol1.gif)
More later gotta work now.
Good point about the tire wear. Maybe he was doing it with wear off and only looking at lap times. Laptimes wouldn't suffer as much if wear was not on.
Maybe you could repeat his tests as closely as you can with wear on normal or fast? I like the idea of using Motegi Speedway. Seems scientific and shit. (read, "controlled")
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I don't think it is the case. At least not visually speaking. I've taken photos of the 69 Camaro race car that I can post later. Also the 2000 Camaro SS which I have been using as a test car has same size tires front and back. I also question his results since he shows no info regarding tire wear. I want to try and duplicate his results.
I might should also dig up my GTP user id and password. (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/lol1.gif)
More later gotta work now.
Good point about the tire wear. Maybe he was doing it with wear off and only looking at lap times. Laptimes wouldn't suffer as much if wear was not on.
Maybe you could repeat his tests as closely as you can with wear on normal or fast? I like the idea of using Motegi Speedway. Seems scientific and shit. (read, "controlled")
While working for the last 4 hours I’ve had some thoughts.
First off you make some good points Ex and it leaves me with some questions that I have not yet tried. Can you change tires with the tire wear set to off? If not is there any affect just going down pit road? Otherwise yes I would like to try and replicate the situation exactly and see if I get the same thing, plus check tire wear. I’ll have to go back and look but if he used Motegi speedway I have concerns about his data since it is a very wide oval and lap times can really vary depending on the driving line and I personally find it hard to be consistent there.
I actually think Daytona would be a better test track to eliminate as many variables as possible but it can get real boring going around and around with no one else on track.
Also in regards to car performance PD may have given us the best tool to see what is going on pre vs. post pit stop. The data logger, assuming it is possible to load a replay into it that has the tire wear bug in affect. I have not used it yet so I do not know its capabilities and limitations.
Perhaps I can play with this after the race tonight along with re-read his post to collect all the settings he used to test the cars.
In a way as long as you don’t dwell on the impact the bug has on racing, it is a fun little puzzle to try and sort out.
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Thanks.
Loading laps into the data logger is tricky, because it only accepts "best lap replays", and so you'd have to probably do test drive mode, and make SURE that your best lap was the one that would reveal something useful in the editor. Then, probably start a new session and make sure that new session's best lap is the other example you want to compare.
They should allow you to load up longer replays and isolate the laps you want to examine..
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Thanks.
Loading laps into the data logger is tricky, because it only accepts "best lap replays", and so you'd have to probably do test drive mode, and make SURE that your best lap was the one that would reveal something useful in the editor. Then, probably start a new session and make sure that new session's best lap is the other example you want to compare.
They should allow you to load up longer replays and isolate the laps you want to examine..
That would be nice, but I think I can work with Best lap replays as long as the modes they are available in will allow me to change tires.
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The most intriguing, and seemingly easily most replicable, thing I see here is the change in speed vs. RPM. A change in top speed would indicate change in wheel (or tire) size, since no other driveline changes are apparent. Or a bug with calculation of tire/wheel sizes. Or something related but much more complex.
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The most intriguing, and seemingly easily most replicable, thing I see here is the change in speed vs. RPM. A change in top speed would indicate change in wheel (or tire) size, since no other driveline changes are apparent. Or a bug with calculation of tire/wheel sizes. Or something related but much more complex.
someone (I believe in the PSN thread dealing with this topic) mentioned the very physics-based possibility that the RPM differences and top speed are related to decreased grip during accel, therefore less accel. That matches perfectly with the increased tire noise.
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The most intriguing, and seemingly easily most replicable, thing I see here is the change in speed vs. RPM. A change in top speed would indicate change in wheel (or tire) size, since no other driveline changes are apparent. Or a bug with calculation of tire/wheel sizes. Or something related but much more complex.
someone (I believe in the PSN thread dealing with this topic) mentioned the very physics-based possibility that the RPM differences and top speed are related to decreased grip during accel, therefore less accel. That matches perfectly with the increased tire noise.
Physics based how? Acceleration and top speed are different things. Changing the outer diameter of the wheel and tire changes the relationship between RPMs and speed. I guess the proposal is that the tires are slipping even at maximum speed, but constant slippage would destroy these tires with heat way faster than is being seen. If the proposal is that they aren't slipping but somehow apply less power, they wouldn't reach the RPM limit, they would simply stop accelerating at a lower speed, with an RPM relative to that speed.
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The most intriguing, and seemingly easily most replicable, thing I see here is the change in speed vs. RPM. A change in top speed would indicate change in wheel (or tire) size, since no other driveline changes are apparent. Or a bug with calculation of tire/wheel sizes. Or something related but much more complex.
someone (I believe in the PSN thread dealing with this topic) mentioned the very physics-based possibility that the RPM differences and top speed are related to decreased grip during accel, therefore less accel. That matches perfectly with the increased tire noise.
Physics based how? Acceleration and top speed are different things. Changing the outer diameter of the wheel and tire changes the relationship between RPMs and speed. I guess the proposal is that the tires are slipping even at maximum speed, but constant slippage would destroy these tires with heat way faster than is being seen. If the proposal is that they aren't slipping but somehow apply less power, they wouldn't reach the RPM limit, they would simply stop accelerating at a lower speed, with an RPM relative to that speed.
ummm... because time is a factor? If you don't accelerate it takes an infinite amount of time to reach top speed.
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If time's the factor, it would not achieve the same RPM. Same RPM with less speed = change in driveline/tire outer diameter. Less RPM with less speed = less acceleration. If the problem is slippage, there should be some acceleration still happening as the wheel speed equals the engine's speed, if it's lack of acceleration the RPMs should be lower. There's no physics-based reason for it to be otherwise.
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I have not yet recreated the test from the planet but since I had to do some racing at Daytona I decided to play around there. Also it turns out that you can still change tires even wear turned. Below is my spread sheet of the results at Daytona without tire wear... yes I ran out of paper. :)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq40/dlrws6/Tire_zps6b8f147b.jpg) (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/dlrws6/media/Tire_zps6b8f147b.jpg.html)
Up next a photo study of a messed up car.
Edit: Strike that. Its more trouble than I thought it would be. (http://i.imgur.com/LmjyBgx.gif)
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If time's the factor, it would not achieve the same RPM. Same RPM with less speed = change in driveline/tire outer diameter. Less RPM with less speed = less acceleration. If the problem is slippage, there should be some acceleration still happening as the wheel speed equals the engine's speed, if it's lack of acceleration the RPMs should be lower. There's no physics-based reason for it to be otherwise.
possibly. I was reading the suggestion as meaning that they were not reaching the top speed or top RPM they were in teh same race, same straights. If that's the case, though, it could merely be that there wasn't enough time to get enough speed or top gear into max RPM by the time they had to begin braking.
Again, just a misunderstanding of what the other was trying to type. I wish it wasn't so easy for this to happen ???
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If time's the factor, it would not achieve the same RPM. Same RPM with less speed = change in driveline/tire outer diameter. Less RPM with less speed = less acceleration. If the problem is slippage, there should be some acceleration still happening as the wheel speed equals the engine's speed, if it's lack of acceleration the RPMs should be lower. There's no physics-based reason for it to be otherwise.
possibly. I was reading the suggestion as meaning that they were not reaching the top speed or top RPM they were in teh same race, same straights. If that's the case, though, it could merely be that there wasn't enough time to get enough speed or top gear into max RPM by the time they had to begin braking.
Again, just a misunderstanding of what the other was trying to type. I wish it wasn't so easy for this to happen ???
The RPM/speed numbers in MGR's post are a little misleading. Those aren't top speed numbers, he just chose those RPM's, and noted the speed at that RPM.
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If time's the factor, it would not achieve the same RPM. Same RPM with less speed = change in driveline/tire outer diameter. Less RPM with less speed = less acceleration. If the problem is slippage, there should be some acceleration still happening as the wheel speed equals the engine's speed, if it's lack of acceleration the RPMs should be lower. There's no physics-based reason for it to be otherwise.
possibly. I was reading the suggestion as meaning that they were not reaching the top speed or top RPM they were in teh same race, same straights. If that's the case, though, it could merely be that there wasn't enough time to get enough speed or top gear into max RPM by the time they had to begin braking.
Again, just a misunderstanding of what the other was trying to type. I wish it wasn't so easy for this to happen ???
The RPM/speed numbers in MGR's post are a little misleading. Those aren't top speed numbers, he just chose those RPM's, and noted the speed at that RPM.
Okay thanks for that. then, that lends more credence to wht I was saying -- that if you have slippage at ANY point in that straight, that you'll see lower speed than you would if you didn't. In fact that sounds silly to say because it's so obvious. We specifically avoid slippage in our racing because we know it makes us slower.
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Not to throw a new wrinkle at this problem, but do we know for sure that the original tires are doing what they should be doing and not the other way around?
OTOH, I hope all of this experimentation is not for naught and PD comes out with a fix "soon".
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Not to throw a new wrinkle at this problem, but do we know for sure that the original tires are doing what they should be doing and not the other way around?
OTOH, I hope all of this experimentation is not for naught and PD comes out with a fix "soon".
No idea, the only indication that the post pit set are the wrong ones is the constant tire squeal under acceleration, that does not occur with the first set.
Either would be fine with me. I also wondered about but have not tested the comfort tires which also squeal under acceleration.
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Ah, I thought he included the RPM because the speed at that RPM changed. If the speed and RPM where both lower, less grip is probable. A change in the relationship between RPM and speed would be an interesting indicator if it were happening. I guess he just added in a random number to the chart for some reason.
Yeah, sorry for any misunderstanding. I wasn't upset, I sound like an asshole when I type. When I try to edit it out, I just sound like an asshole in a hurry.
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Not to throw a new wrinkle at this problem, but do we know for sure that the original tires are doing what they should be doing and not the other way around?
OTOH, I hope all of this experimentation is not for naught and PD comes out with a fix "soon".
No idea, the only indication that the post pit set are the wrong ones is the constant tire squeal under acceleration, that does not occur with the first set.
Either would be fine with me. I also wondered about but have not tested the comfort tires which also squeal under acceleration.
I agree that it seems more probably that the first set of tires is what we would call "correct" because at one point PD did try to alleviate some of the "exessive tire squeal" that people complained about, and so it stands to reason that the quieter of the two is the one they "fixed". Those tires probably also exhibit the type of wear life that we would find a bit more desirable.
And "no". No worries... I'll try to keep that in mind for the future. :D
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MGR has done some additional testing...
http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6%E2%80%99s-game-breaking-pit-stop-flaw.307007/ (http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6%E2%80%99s-game-breaking-pit-stop-flaw.307007/)
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Not to throw a new wrinkle at this problem, but do we know for sure that the original tires are doing what they should be doing and not the other way around?
OTOH, I hope all of this experimentation is not for naught and PD comes out with a fix "soon".
I posed this same question a couple pages ago
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Not to throw a new wrinkle at this problem, but do we know for sure that the original tires are doing what they should be doing and not the other way around?
OTOH, I hope all of this experimentation is not for naught and PD comes out with a fix "soon".
I posed this same question a couple pages ago
And I posted this, a couple pages ago...
From what I've tested, every set of tires from the first pit stop on, are the same. I've done runs, and pitted 5 times, with no other set of tires acting like the first. It is possible the first set is "wrong", but it doesn't really matter which set is wrong. None of them should be.
This is a question we can't answer. Only PD knows.
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MGR has done some additional testing...
http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6%E2%80%99s-game-breaking-pit-stop-flaw.307007/ (http://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gt6%E2%80%99s-game-breaking-pit-stop-flaw.307007/)
Heh, looks like some from column A and some from column B. If it was that simple, they'd have found it by now, it'll be interesting to see how it's all related. (I doubt it's a series of coincidental issues)
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Seems like the game is referencing one set of default values when you enter the track (values for tyre compound, diameter etc) and another (screwed up set of erroneous data) when performing a pit stop. Whenever you go to track the tyre values seem correct lobby (but leave your car entered or 'on track'), when you go back to the car the tyre values are correct again and the bug is gone.
That sounds like the idea I had, that the wrong tire variant is being placed on the cars after a pit.
The reason is that there's no reason why, if you have the "correct" tires upon race start, that it couldn't simply copy what it did at race start, for the pit-stop tire-exchange. Because it isnt' happening, it must be placing something different on the cars. The "physics" don't change when the pit stop occurs. T here's no reason why they would code it that way. But perhaps the wrong reference is hidden in there somewhere, referencing the wrong tire.
The fact that the Comfort Soft tires did not seem to cause additional wear when swapped at a pit, makes me wonder if there is only ONE type of Comfort Soft tire in the game's code, and many types of Sports and Racing tires. We know from the GT5 cracking jobs people did, that there are different variants of tires. So, maybe someone could figure out if there's only one type of CS?
Maybe we should post our tests over there in the GTP thread? I finally signed up there to post some pics recently...
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Seems like the game is referencing one set of default values when you enter the track (values for tyre compound, diameter etc) and another (screwed up set of erroneous data) when performing a pit stop. Whenever you go to track the tyre values seem correct lobby (but leave your car entered or 'on track'), when you go back to the car the tyre values are correct again and the bug is gone.
That sounds like the idea I had, that the wrong tire variant is being placed on the cars after a pit.
The reason is that there's no reason why, if you have the "correct" tires upon race start, that it couldn't simply copy what it did at race start, for the pit-stop tire-exchange. Because it isnt' happening, it must be placing something different on the cars. The "physics" don't change when the pit stop occurs. T here's no reason why they would code it that way. But perhaps the wrong reference is hidden in there somewhere, referencing the wrong tire.
The fact that the Comfort Soft tires did not seem to cause additional wear when swapped at a pit, makes me wonder if there is only ONE type of Comfort Soft tire in the game's code, and many types of Sports and Racing tires. We know from the GT5 cracking jobs people did, that there are different variants of tires. So, maybe someone could figure out if there's only one type of CS?
Maybe we should post our tests over there in the GTP thread? I finally signed up there to post some pics recently...
So what your saying is I need to test comfort tires... Ok I should have some free time tonight.
I'll go ahead and say it, if any one wants to post my data over there feel free to, just give credit where credit is due, not that it is worth anything.
I'm still trying to figure out my account password over there or I'd do it myself. I guess if it comes to it I could create a new id over there, afterall I am considering retiring the dlrws6 id/persona.
Edit: FGT is not glitched. :P
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Follow-up:
As you know, I made SCEA aware of this tire / pit stop problem, a while ago. Someone is going over to Japan in a few weeks and has submitted a number of problems beyond this one to them before he goes. He will be following up on those when he visits them. I hope to have some answers after he returns.
In the meantime, let's hope the Academy update also filters a few fixes into what we now have.
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Your efforts are much appreciated, MasterGT. Let's hope they do some good. :)
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:stoopid:
thanks for you efforts MGT
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:stoopid: :stoopid:
Yes, thank you.