SupaTunaGT
Gran Turismo => General Gran Turismo => Topic started by: BakedTuna on June 24, 2014, 10:16:08 AM
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Heavy or Light damage that is the question.
Where does everyone stand on this? I mean personally I am torn. While it sucks that the technology does not exist for a computer generated race control that could throw a local or full course caution to accompany the wreck and aftermath so we suffer along without.
But on the flip side even with damage on heavy you cannot total a car out of a race entirely so yes we lose almost any chance of contending for podium under the current system, no yellows, but we get to keep driving no matter what to finish the race if we so desire.
For non points recreational type events I think light damage is fitting. But for longer points type racing I have been thinking lately about added realism such as pit stops, tire compound choices, in race strategies, dealing with the fallout from a wreck both immediate and long term. Many of us used to express desire for the chance to emulate what we would like to be able to do in real life and I am realizing there are such things I might still be interested in.
Anyone care to share your thoughts. These types of discussions can lead toward events more in line with what people are looking for at best or at least be helpful for event organizers and at worst it is just a decent GT6 related topic to see what friends have to say on such matters.
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I really enjoyed the heavy damage and cautions we used back in GT5 for some of the Tuna Cup evnets I was a part of, while not completely true to life it was a fairly simple system that seemed to work well and those that took damage often had a chance to catch back up to the rear of the pack after repairs or at least not be ridiculously far behind.
I do agree that for non-points racing light damage is usually the best option, though on the flip side of that sometimes heavy damage may be good too because at least if you break the car you know it'll only be say 5-10 minutes til another race. Maybe I'll have to try that out in a ToC sometime and see how it goes hehe.
Depending on the car / track I'd be quite happy doing points races with heavy damage turned on, whether there's any kind of caution procedure or not I think it would be fun :).
On a side note one thing that really kills the general concept of "Heavy Damage" in GT for me is the severe lack of visual accompaniment, I know the lack of heavy visual damage is almost a trademark of the franchise but I'd still like to see some improvements there. The scrapes and dings we have right now are better IMO than what we had in GT5 and they work well enough for Light Damage but seem out of place for Heavy Damage, if I've bent my wheel enough that I have to go to the pits to have it straightened then it should look a bit more obvious that the car is damaged. But that's probably a grumble for another thread :).
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The biggest problem I have with events being run with heavy damage can be summed up with one word:
Lag
Out of the blue, due to the fault of no one, your entire race can be ruined b/c of some stupid network glitch.
However, I've run events with full damage enabled, and it works well as long as everyone understands that race caution periods will occur (for multi-car incidents or lag related damage). You pull a Darwin and fly off the track all by yourself that's on you, haha. :D
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The biggest problem I have with events being run with heavy damage can be summed up with one word:
Lag
Out of the blue, due to the fault of no one, your entire race can be ruined b/c of some stupid network glitch.
However, I've run events with full damage enabled, and it works well as long as everyone understands that race caution periods will occur (for multi-car incidents or lag related damage). You pull a Darwin and fly off the track all by yourself that's on you, haha. :D
that makes sense... the other thing that would be a factor would be the predictability of the maneuvers of those racing around you.
Some would shy away from an event of this nature because they'd be overly concerned that they'd ruin someone else's race. Others might shy away because they're unfamiliar with how another racer takes corners etc. and too concerned that contact will occur and have lasting consequences.
BUT, with those things said, I think if a good caution system is devised it is workable, and if advertised that no one should shy away for these reasons, you might get good attendance.
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Heavy Damage no Cautions. It's the only way to fly.
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Heavy Damage no Cautions. It's the only way to fly.
(http://i.imgur.com/LmjyBgx.gif)
Yeah... I really love heavy damage and the wild cardness it brings to a race but then again most of the races I'm in are 5 laps or less so it's no good. For longer races, absolutely. It makes you race more carefully, approach and pass others more carefully. In a room full if strangers its insane and no good either. But in a group of respectable friends, it adds a lot.
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Something else to consider is on road courses "full course yellows" are used when cars need to be removed from an unsafe area. Otherwise the preferered method of yellow is a "local" yellow. We never have a need for more than a "local" yellow so maybe no cautions at all are not as big of a deal as I had first thought.
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I think that's where the Caution lap(s) system we used in the Tuna Cup came into play, since there is no car / debris removal necessary in GT6 looking back on it it seemed a bit like that was intended to simulate a "full course yellow" to some degree (but rather than giving the track workers time to safely remove debris it gave the drivers a chance to remove their own wreckage back to the pits for a repair).
But since there isn't any actual system within GT6 itself to handle things like that it's very much a "Gentleman's Agreement" between racers and probably why it worked in those type of points series races, so that would be down to the evnet host. If a host wants to run some kind of caution / safety car / yellow flag procedure that everyone agrees to follow that's cool, if not then that's cool too, for me personally it wouldn't matter either way as a participant so long as I know and understand :).
I certainly wouldn't shy away from a heavy damage event with no cautions either, so long as it's a car or class of car I'm comfortable driving and controlling I'd give it a shot.
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I know I no longer race but if I may be permitted to share my two cents.
I'm a big fan of heavy damage and preferred using it even offline with occasional interesting results. I think it does tend to scare away the more casual drop in and out type of racers but in a points based series it seems to work ok. I don't remember any major complaints or issues when it was used in TunaCup.
Cautions are another story. I think several of us tried different ways to do it and it never fails, there tend to be accidents during the cautions and in some cases utter confusion. The First Undy is the only race I remember where the caution laps seemed to work without much issue, but as I recall there was constant communication from the leader and/or front runners as to how many laps were left, where the leader was at on track, or if the leader was pitting.
My opinion until PD gives some form of functionality for in game cautions leave them out. Or limit them to major wrecks such as lag spikes that take out half the field.
I'd also avoid cautions and possibly heavy damage at Daytona Oval with cars that reach speeds over 190mph. Mainly due to the frequency of the wrecks.
Well that's my two pennies, now back to work.
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I know I no longer race but if I may be permitted to share my two cents.
I'm a big fan of heavy damage and preferred using it even offline with occasional interesting results. I think it does tend to scare away the more casual drop in and out type of racers but in a points based series it seems to work ok. I don't remember any major complaints or issues when it was used in TunaCup.
Cautions are another story. I think several of us tried different ways to do it and it never fails, there tend to be accidents during the cautions and in some cases utter confusion. The First Undy is the only race I remember where the caution laps seemed to work without much issue, but as I recall there was constant communication from the leader and/or front runners as to how many laps were left, where the leader was at on track, or if the leader was pitting.
My opinion until PD gives some form of functionality for in game cautions leave them out. Or limit them to major wrecks such as lag spikes that take out half the field.
I'd also avoid cautions and possibly heavy damage at Daytona Oval with cars that reach speeds over 190mph. Mainly due to the frequency of the wrecks.
Well that's my two pennies, now back to work.
Hey, you need to get back on track. The online connections seem more stable recently.
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Sorry Dude, but I must object 1000%. Myself and thousands are still plagued with disconnects, freezes, black screens, etc, etc. Just take last Sats drunk driving as an example. It was horrible.
I do agree that dlrws needs to get back online with us though. ^-^
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I'm running in a heavy damage enduro (1 1/2 hour) series and no cautions. I like it, it inspires caution for drivers in most cases.
Also GET BACK IN HERE dlr 8)
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Sorry Dude, but I must object 1000%. Myself and thousands are still plagued with disconnects, freezes, black screens, etc, etc. Just take last Sats drunk driving as an example. It was horrible.
I do agree that dlrws needs to get back online with us though. ^-^
I guess I was really, really drunk, cause I remember it being fine. (http://i.imgur.com/LmjyBgx.gif)
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I'm running in a heavy damage enduro (1 1/2 hour) series and no cautions. I like it, it inspires caution for drivers in most cases.
Also GET BACK IN HERE dlr 8)
In cases like you are speaking of I think it can work. The added realism of possible consequence for your actions could be cool.
I wonder what they run for the Academy runoffs where they race together or for that matter what the FIA will want to do when their series start next spring. Will they be worried about video gamers looking for fun or will their series use full damage to try to replicate a real life type setting.
Do I think it works for all races? Not even close but I am still curious about running some that way.
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:)
I have thought about it a little from time to time as my desire to race is still there. I even got a little excited when they announced the two 80s track variations. All I could think about was certain 80s cars on 80s tracks. I tried to play a little when I did the 1.9 patch update and just could not get into it.
Even if I were to start again I realize that when GT7 roles around I'd be stuck offline, even if I purchased it. As I refuse to pay any more fees to play online. I'd almost be willing to if PD was the one charging because it would at least put money in the pocket of the people making the game I want to play and hopefully raise the quality of the game. But as it is I expect there would be absolutely no benefit to a PSplus subscription other than access to "free" games that I'd never play.
I am though enjoying a little bit of retro-racing. On a whim I loaded Sportscar GT on to my laptop and have had some fun with it. I may even try the 12 Hours of Sebring soon.
Back on topic... I'm still all for heavy damage, even on short races it may make people think twice about a dumb move and perhaps decrease some of the overly aggressive behavior.
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I agree, to disagree...
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I agree, to disagree...
With whom? May I help you with some confusion?
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None of the arguments FOR heavy damage in this thread have a contingency plan for people that are helpless victims of getting nailed by someone being careless. I'm not gonna spend hours practicing for a race just to have it ruined by someone else's carelessness.
(I realize that can occur without heavy damage - however it's even more likely to occur with heavy damage)
Also regarding the network stability, I wanted to mention my series' race this past Wednesday night went off without a hitch.
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I agree, to disagree...
With whom? May I help you with some confusion?
So far every post, but I'm not confused. Thanks anyway Dude. :)
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None of the arguments FOR heavy damage in this thread have a contingency plan for people that are helpless victims of getting nailed by someone being careless. I'm not gonna spend hours practicing for a race just to have it ruined by someone else's carelessness.
(I realize that can occur without heavy damage - however it's even more likely to occur with heavy damage)
Also regarding the network stability, I wanted to mention my series' race this past Wednesday night went off without a hitch.
Why not? Is that so unrealistic? In karting I had several incidents where another's stupidity cost me, sometimes dearly. We see it happen in any race on tv. Yes it sucks but at least here it does not come at the possible expense to our budgets or our health and well being.
And my rooms hardly ever have issues only on a few rare occasions. Thought I would mention this as well.
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I agree, to disagree...
With whom? May I help you with some confusion?
So far every post, but I'm not confused. Thanks anyway Dude. :)
I think he was offering to confuse you. If you aren't confused then you need his help.
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None of the arguments FOR heavy damage in this thread have a contingency plan for people that are helpless victims of getting nailed by someone being careless. I'm not gonna spend hours practicing for a race just to have it ruined by someone else's carelessness.
(I realize that can occur without heavy damage - however it's even more likely to occur with heavy damage)
I thought I'd elabourate a bit more on what I said on the 1rd page (thought I did there but checked and I hadn't), the way cautions worked in the Tuna Cup in GT5 did kind of take into account multiple car incidents caused by lag or one person's carelessness / accidental error. I forget the exact details for certain but so far as I remember if 2 or more cars were involved in an incident (say there was a lag spike that caused your and my cars to collide resulting in damage) then those not involved would race to the start / finish line and slow down to caution speed for a lap.
Damaged vehicles would get to the pits as fast as possible, repair and then catch back up to the back of the pack as quickly as possible. Once the leader reached the line again after 1 lap at caution speed the race restarts, depending on the length of track and severity of the damage the cars that pitted may have caught back up to the pack or at least not be too far behind.
I "think" that was basically how it worked and from what I remember it did, for the most part, work quite well. Of course if I'm completely mis-remembering this through rose-tinted spectacles or something can someone please correct me ^-^.
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None of the arguments FOR heavy damage in this thread have a contingency plan for people that are helpless victims of getting nailed by someone being careless. I'm not gonna spend hours practicing for a race just to have it ruined by someone else's carelessness.
(I realize that can occur without heavy damage - however it's even more likely to occur with heavy damage)
Also regarding the network stability, I wanted to mention my series' race this past Wednesday night went off without a hitch.
Why not? Is that so unrealistic? In karting I had several incidents where another's stupidity cost me, sometimes dearly. We see it happen in any race on tv. Yes it sucks but at least here it does not come at the possible expense to our budgets or our health and well being.
And my rooms hardly ever have issues only on a few rare occasions. Thought I would mention this as well.
This is a video game.
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I understand that Brindle. I thought we all wanted realism and I am trying to find out how much realism everyone wants and or thinks is enough.
I know you find challenges in running without ABS or trying to complete a perfect race. Well it is possible some want to know the added challenges that heavy damage brings with it.
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Metallica - Damage, Inc (Studio Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbLMrce7OJI#)
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Valid points gentlemen, and I have no problem with the challenges of heavy damage as long as there's a "caution" policy that doesn't screw over people that didn't make mistakes. You can't avoid it IRL but you can here.
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If you ever have an open Friday evening you should look for Fisherrat's (I will have to double check the ID spelling) open room race. It is always full damage without cautions. It works just fine as most who join understand the implications of damaging themselves or others. I don't make it very often, but the times I have, have been fun and exciting.
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But as it is I expect there would be absolutely no benefit to a PSplus subscription other than access to "free" games that I'd never play.
The main benefit is that you get to play with your PSN friends.