SupaTunaGT
Online Events => Other Online Events => Topic started by: TunaPitReject on May 19, 2011, 09:16:30 AM
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So there was some talk last night about turning the current Strathound Touring Challenge into a regular Tuna event. I don't want to step on any toes. I'm still very new here. But if there is interest in a weekly touring event, I'd be happy to take what we've got going and start posting dates here. Again, I'm happy to run these over on the Playstation Community. I believe it was Dude and Sniper that mentioned this. So I just wanted to open it up for some discussion.
We talked about Wednesday nights. But I sometimes go out and jam on Weds nights. So Monday might be better for me.
Thoughts?
Michael
P.S. I don't want to own this thing. I'd rather we all collectively throw new ideas into the hat so we keep it fun and interesting. Good racing is good.
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Let me know if you want a separate area for these (Like "Neptune's Domain", "Legit's Tuna Casserole", "Brindle's Barn", and "Sitting Duck Racing")
To do that I need:
1) What to call it
2) Description
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I don't want to break from tradition ... but ... in all honesty, I think we'll have like ... one thread per week. I'd kind of like to post them here, if that's ok. :-\
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I think BakedTuna was planning on running a Spec-Miata series on Wednesdays so Mondays would probably be best.
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I don't want to break from tradition ... but ... in all honesty, I think we'll have like ... one thread per week. I'd kind of like to post them here, if that's ok. :-\
No problemo... We're adaptable.... A separate area just makes things easy to find once you have a "fan base"...
In case you hadn't noticed, we tend to get as much visitor traffic as with members. (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/Lurking.gif) It used to be that Visitor traffic was always more - but in moving websites we lost some of the lurkers. I am sure they will find us again if they want.
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I think BakedTuna was planning on running a Spec-Miata series on Wednesdays so Mondays would probably be best.
Cool. We can call it ... MAD MIKE MONDAYS!!!!
It's crazy up in he-ah:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/strathound/33912_10150106442189619_829679618_7508091_740612_n.jpg?t=1305822925)
:jimi:
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First, his post over at the Deathstar...(simplified by me)
Cars: Touring Modified (any style production Street cars - 6 cylinders or less)
276hp / 1300kg / 450pp
Tires: Racing Soft
Mods: All are allowed (except RM)
Engine Power Reduction: Allowed
Weight Ballast: Allowed
Track - changes week to week
main things I've skipped...etiquette (he mentioned iRacing rules), qualifying, schedule.
The basic setup is good. Fun cars. Perhaps one month 450pp, next month 500pp, next month 475pp. This could include HP going up to 325 or even 350. It's nice to change it up once in a while. The only restrictions are no race cars, no RM cars, no Concepts, and no 'Tuner' cars (Amuse, Spoon, etc). Like it says...production street cars. I like these ideas.
The question now is...is it a race series, or our usual show up run fun racing with the gang.
If it's a show up have fun setup, qualifying is almost irrelevant, and etiquette is simple...Race Clean, Have Fun. Schedule? Pick the number of laps and run 2 or 3 races per hour. Keep it flowing.
If it is a series, etiquette is still pretty much the same, but you just have to decide on a qualifying format, just keep it simple. Schedule? I haven't been in an actual race series yet, so I don't know what's good here. It would be cool though to have a ~45 minute race as the main event. It would also be cool to invite non-series participants out after the race to run shorter races, kind of like the above 'show up have fun' setup
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Based on what we talked about last night, it would be a "Show Up And Have Fun" kind of racing and social event.
Question is ... would you still want folks from the Deathstar to be able to join? Should I cross-post the events there? If so, then having some statement of bare minimum expectations for etiquette is probably a good thing ... mostly for the new folks that maybe don't get what clean driving means.
MS
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Also, regarding schedule, tracks, PP limits, etc ...
My theory is that it's less fun if I decide what those should be. I don't want to dictate. I'd like this to be something where someone comes in here one day and says ... "lets bump up the PP this week". Ok. Cool. Or "lets change the class of car to blah". Sure. We have a formula that we know works. These cars are fun to drive. So when tricking it up gets old, we go back to the old standards. Rinse repeat.
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Based on what we talked about last night, it would be a "Show Up And Have Fun" kind of racing and social event.
Question is ... would you still want folks from the Deathstar to be able to join? Should I cross-post the events there? If so, then having some statement of bare minimum expectations for etiquette is probably a good thing ... mostly for the new folks that maybe don't get what clean driving means.
MS
Good thinking about rules. It is good to post something. My tip...don't post a link or a video to give rules. Either type them out or copy/paste.
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Ok, well I'm not going to get all of this setup by this Monday. I'm musical director for a music festival this weekend. And I'm swamped. But we can agree to get together online on Monday for some informal driving and discussion of the event. Sound good?
MS
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Monday sounds good. Also just to clarify something on the rules, are we still going with "no MR cars" as was discussed a bit on the PSN thread or let that slide now that we've had a chance to test out some more cars and in actual race situations?
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Monday sounds good. Also just to clarify something on the rules, are we still going with "no MR cars" as was discussed a bit on the PSN thread or let that slide now that we've had a chance to test out some more cars and in actual race situations?
What we have on the PSN thread represents one possible race. There may be several variations on this, one of those variations may include MR cars. But right now, we're sticking with what's on the PSN thread.
MS
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Based on what we talked about last night, it would be a "Show Up And Have Fun" kind of racing and social event.
Question is ... would you still want folks from the Deathstar to be able to join? Should I cross-post the events there? If so, then having some statement of bare minimum expectations for etiquette is probably a good thing ... mostly for the new folks that maybe don't get what clean driving means.
MS
I like show up and have fun! Cross posting is excellent, keep it open and more can enjoy.
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Based on what we talked about last night, it would be a "Show Up And Have Fun" kind of racing and social event.
Question is ... would you still want folks from the Deathstar to be able to join? Should I cross-post the events there? If so, then having some statement of bare minimum expectations for etiquette is probably a good thing ... mostly for the new folks that maybe don't get what clean driving means.
MS
I like show up and have fun! Cross posting is excellent, keep it open and more can enjoy.
Just make sure to steer clear of "cross dressing".
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Just make sure to steer clear of "cross dressing".
Ok (http://i2.listal.com/image/1187252/500full.jpg)
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Just make sure to steer clear of "cross dressing".
Ok (http://i2.listal.com/image/1187252/500full.jpg)
Oh..., ya...about that. I can explain. I was just trying to get these crazy hillbillies to beat each other up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQQGSsI87kA
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:teehee
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I like where this discussion is going. I think, to start, an informal event would serve as a nice introduction to the kind of racing we're involved in. Set some simple guidelines (which you've done) and allow folks to bring anything they can make fit. If it gets attention and a regular following, more formal procedures can be introduced.
I've also heard mention of locating the event on HSR on a permanent basis. I LOVE that idea. And I also love the idea of posting this on PSN. That's something we've discussed recently... returning to PSN to promote our events. I just can't bring myself to do it, but if TPR would be willing to maintain an announcement thread for this event... that would be excellent!
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Just a heads up ... probably won't officially start this Monday. I've committed to racing in another race on Monday. But we'll pick this up the following week, give me some time to launch it properly.
MS
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Maybe if there's enough folks interested we can get an unofficial practice session going again like last week, some practice laps to test out different cars / setups interspersed with some 10 lap races for some competitive fun. I know I could certainly use the practice :laugh.
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Maybe if there's enough folks interested we can get an unofficial practice session going again like last week, some practice laps to test out different cars / setups interspersed with some 10 lap races for some competitive fun. I know I could certainly use the practice :laugh.
I'm down with more practice/ 10 lap races. I will look for you guys during the week.
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I like where this discussion is going. I think, to start, an informal event would serve as a nice introduction to the kind of racing we're involved in. Set some simple guidelines (which you've done) and allow folks to bring anything they can make fit. If it gets attention and a regular following, more formal procedures can be introduced.
I've also heard mention of locating the event on HSR on a permanent basis. I LOVE that idea. And I also love the idea of posting this on PSN. That's something we've discussed recently... returning to PSN to promote our events. I just can't bring myself to do it, but if TPR would be willing to maintain an announcement thread for this event... that would be excellent!
:stoopid:
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Re: HSR on a permanent basis...
Whatever yall want to do is fine by me. I'd prefer not to **force** it to be permanent. I'd rather it be the choice of those that frequent the event. But if those people want HSRR every single week, and that keeps them coming back, then sure, HSRR every week. One nice thing about that is the racing will get tighter and tighter each week, and I love that.
MS
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You should switch it up between doing HSR forward and reverse. It's a fun track in either direction, and has to be treated differently.
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Re: HSR on a permanent basis...
Whatever yall want to do is fine by me. I'd prefer not to **force** it to be permanent. I'd rather it be the choice of those that frequent the event. But if those people want HSRR every single week, and that keeps them coming back, then sure, HSRR every week. One nice thing about that is the racing will get tighter and tighter each week, and I love that.
MS
It's your event, so you get to determine whether it's HSR all the time or not. Having said that, I could run HSR all night once a week easily. Maybe twice.
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:dunno maybe HSR-forward on EVEN weeks; HSR-Reverse on ODD ones? ;)
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Re: HSR on a permanent basis...
Whatever yall want to do is fine by me. I'd prefer not to **force** it to be permanent. I'd rather it be the choice of those that frequent the event. But if those people want HSRR every single week, and that keeps them coming back, then sure, HSRR every week. One nice thing about that is the racing will get tighter and tighter each week, and I love that.
MS
It's your event, so you get to determine whether it's HSR all the time or not. Having said that, I could run HSR all night once a week easily. Maybe twice.
That's the thing man, if we do this right, it's not my event, it's OUR event. That will give it the greatest chance of longevity. We'll run HSR frontwards and backwards until someone wants to do something different. I love the track. I'll let you know when I'm ready for a change. :)
MS
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It's been (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/quotesmiley.gif) the (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/tuna_rating.png) home track (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/quotesmiley.gif) since before GT5... I think a weekly open event at our home turf is a great way to showcase what we offer... Close, fast, clean, FUN racing!!!
Putting the GT World on notice...
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated..."
Welcome to the "Dark Side" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQ-6IAS1cc)
(http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT/darkside.jpg)
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I like the idea of running HSR in both directions, from an online noob's perspective I found the practice sessions we ran the other week to be a great introduction to online racing as well as the Tuna folks I met there (in fact that was how I found out about this place!).
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I like the idea of running HSR in both directions, from an online noob's perspective I found the practice sessions we ran the other week to be a great introduction to online racing as well as the Tuna folks I met there (in fact that was how I found out about this place!).
Yeah, I couldn't believe that was your first time racing online. You were fast from the get go. ;)
:jimi:
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Okay... to recap:
It looks like we're cooking up a regular Monday night event involving street cars tuned to specs to be run on HSR until the cows come home. Something that will serve as an introductory event to Tuna-style fun racing. I like it. And for now it will simply be posted up as an announcement in Online Events here with a matching announcement over on PSN. I like that, too.
Reading back through the posts I see some suggestions worthy of consideration. Alternating Forward and Reverse on HSR is a good one. That provides two different flavors of what has always been our favorite track.
I'd like to harken back to the days of Prologue by setting different PP and drive train specs each week. Anything from 450PP on up to 700 and mix it up by running FR, FF, and AWD on different weeks. Not necessarily change that up every week, but not run the same types of cars week after week either.
I also love the idea of a "run what ya brung" mentality by allowing a lot of flexibility in setting up the cars within the parmaters. But we've learned PP is not a reliable guideline when it comes to comparing cars, so we might consider including a limited range for power/weight ratio. I'm sure guys smarter than me have already looked at it, but it strikes me that cars running at 450PP are going to have a higher P/W number than cars running at 500PP. At least, I thinks so. Help me out here... I'm just trying to find a way that ensures guys can grab cars that will run well with each other without telling them what to bring.
What else? What else? Locked on R3 tires? We might want to loosen up on that in the future but I'm good with it for now. Some cars on too much tire can be boring, although that changes when you get a group of them running together. Just thinking out loud here.
Good stuff.
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For those who haven't looked at PP much, 600PP gets you a seriously fast street car. Probably a 600hp car, and probably under 1300kg. 650pp is a modded super car. 450 seems to be the starting point (around 276hp/1300kg), and I would suggest putting the cap at 550PP. That can get you a very fun 1200kg street car. Remember, this is introductory racing, originally designed to be a low powered touring racing.
My preference is faster car = better tire.
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For those who haven't looked at PP much, 600PP gets you a seriously fast street car.
See? Didn't take long for a guy smarter than me to speak up. :)
So, maybe 700PP is a little ambitious.
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Regarding the regulations and drivetrains, going by Reject's early guildlines and using all 3 major values (i.e. 276hp / 450pp / 1300kg) I've found a veritable plethora of different cars that can post competitive times. Given the flexibility of tuning options for this race (i.e. can add weight / reduce HP to meet targets) it might be worth sticking to those 3 target numbers rather than trying to find one "golden stat" to judge things by.
Granted if all the cars weigh about 1300kg and have about 276hp the power:weight ratio will be pretty similar across the board but I think by restricting the power and weight to set numbers it makes the field of possible cars that much more even, if we went just on say the power:weight ratio then we might end up with a tricked out Caterham Seven Fireblade against a Ferrari Enzo (which I admit might actually be an interesting race but hopefully gets my point across :) ).
Also I think drivetrain wise having all cars with similar weight / hp really helps even the playing field, I've been testing quite a wide variety of cars and with the exception of a few MR cars (I think both Reject and I found that the NSX and MR2 were putting out significantly better lap times though were tough to control) the majority of FF, FR and 4WD cars I've tried to date were posting similar times. The average being about 1:11.5 to 1:12.5 on a good lap, some were a bit faster and a few where a bit slower but generally most cars fell in that range for me. I'm not saying we shouldn't do just FF one week then FR the next, just that for an introductory "run wot chabrung" race setting limits for hp, weight and PP together will give people a lot of variety / choice to still be competitive rather than everyone ending up in the same few cars.
And I think that showed in the practice seeions we had last week. As an example of that I think on one of the first sessions Reject (I think?) and I had a pretty close battle, he was driving a Honda S2000 with a massive wing while I was driving a crusty old 1990 Nissan Primera. The next day we had a DeLorean, R34 (I think) Skyline and a Nissan 300ZX running nose to tail almost the entire 10 laps of the race.
Not that I've got anything against faster cars though, in fact I'd love to run some races in higher HP / PP production car brackets as well as the lower powered race cars (like the GT300 type level) though I'm really quite terrible with anything much over about 600hp.. I can't race LeMans cars to save my life!
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I think you're on to something. If we can keep the parameters simple and consistent that makes it much easier for someone to grab a car and jump in the water, as it were.
An underlying goal in all our racing events back in Prologue was to create pack racing. Our wrules and wrinkles, car/track choices, and provided tunes were all aimed at getting cars and drivers running close lap times, and thus close races. Everything was a "suggestion" and most people followed them and we've had some great times. We found that a hard fought race for 6th place can be just as much fun and rewarding as shooting for a podium finish.
HSR lends itself to pack racing very well, and we've learned if you can get two different cars turning lap times within a second of each other they will race very well together. We used to set everything up to level the playing field as much as possible to force the issue, and even through in wrinkles to handicap the fast guys in an effort to keep them from running away from the field. Just ask hey. He was always my benchmark and I even went so far as to write in specific instructions aimed at him alone. Sometimes they worked but usually he just outdrove us anyway. (http://i.imgur.com/LmjyBgx.gif)
The point being, folks always enjoyed it when we opened things up and let them bring their own cars and setups.
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I really like the idea of being able to bring whatever you want within the :rulez . It is always cool to see lots of different cars out there competing. I do realize that it is hard to get many cars to be even. Maybe prepare three cars within spec to use. One or two really different ones and one "go to car". This way some unsuspecting cars may be discovered.
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I think you're on to something. If we can keep the parameters simple and consistent that makes it much easier for someone to grab a car and jump in the water, as it were.
An underlying goal in all our racing events back in Prologue was to create pack racing. Our wrules and wrinkles, car/track choices, and provided tunes were all aimed at getting cars and drivers running close lap times, and thus close races. Everything was a "suggestion" and most people followed them and we've had some great times. We found that a hard fought race for 6th place can be just as much fun and rewarding as shooting for a podium finish.
HSR lends itself to pack racing very well, and we've learned if you can get two different cars turning lap times within a second of each other they will race very well together. We used to set everything up to level the playing field as much as possible to force the issue, and even through in wrinkles to handicap the fast guys in an effort to keep them from running away from the field. Just ask hey. He was always my benchmark and I even went so far as to write in specific instructions aimed at him alone. Sometimes they worked but usually he just outdrove us anyway. (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/lol1.gif)
The point being, folks always enjoyed it when we opened things up and let them bring their own cars and setups.
That's been my goal from the beginning. Lots of good ideas and suggestions here. Some of the folks here may have missed some of the planning discussion on the PSN around this. So let me see if I can level set the group on what I was going for.
Just as you mention UCan, I've always enjoyed races with a low barrier to entry. Part of what creates a low barrier to entry is having cars already setup and ready to go for a particular race. I designed this set of weight, hp and PP requirements around a couple cars. I wanted to see S2000's vs. 350Z's vs. BMWs. That was my target. So the hp and PP are based off a mostly stock S2000. And the weight was raised to be able to include some of the heavier cars like the Z and the smaller BMWs. That gives us our target range for a touring class of car that any one of us could possibly purchase and drive in real life.
Then came the question of mods. There are lots of ways to skin this cat. And some are better than others. But I've found, no matter how you slice it, there's always going to be one or two cars that are just better for a given track, either because they have more torque or because they just naturally handle better. There's no getting around that. So rather than spending weeks trying to make it fair, I decided to embrace it. I took a couple of weeks and drove every single car I could get my hands on that fit the category. Then I posted my results for all to see. That way everyone knows which cars are fastest. And then I just threw it out there ... are you chicken? Can you handle driving a car that may not be the fastest on the track? And can you win anyways? Can you find a way to tune it so that it's competitive?
And what I've found is that simple challenge to people's manhood resulted in a LOT of variety on the track. It was really nice, actually. Sure, when you've lost the last three races, you may decide to show up in the fastest car. But you're basically saying ... I can't do it with my driving alone. And that's ok.
As Feldynn mentioned, this combination produces a lot of cars that are remarkably close in terms of performance. If we were to tweak the settings, I'd like to find another full class of cars and target them, like we did here. For example, I'm already thinking about a V8 touring class that would include some of the American muscle cars against the V8 BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, etc (inspired by the some racing I watched over the weekend at the Virginia International Raceway (http://www.virnow.com/event/Bosch-Engineering-Grand-Am-Rolex-Sports-Car-Series-Continental-Tire-Series--Sat--SCCA-Pro-Trans-Am-Series--Sun--48).) I think that would give us a second really solid series with more HP and more weight that would include a whole new set of cars to try out.
If we want to try other combinations, that's fine too. But we've had good success building this around a set of cars that we want to race against one another. And there's a lot of testing that goes on to get it just right. That's all I wanted to mention.
Tires. When I initially suggested Racing Soft as the standard, several folks mentioned mentioned that they thought that made the race too easy. I think we've all seen that, while it does give you more grip, that just allows you to go faster. And the softer rubber keeps things predictable in the corners. So you've got higher speeds in the corner with predictable lines. And this results in really tight racing, side by side, three or four wide. And it's just crazy fun. I raced last night with another group of guys. Feld was there. And this isn't a criticism of their event, it's just an observation. We raced on HSRR in the same cars ... S2000s and 350Zs. But we were on Sports Soft tires. I got lapped by the winner. I spun the car ... 5 times? 6? Not sure. Part of it was just bad driving on my part. But the entire field was spread out. And instead of racing each other, we were all (I think) trying like hell just to keep the car going in the right direction. It was not nearly as fun as when I have traction and I'm jockeying for position with another couple of drivers. So yes, Racing rubber is for beginners. But I suggest we try different tires after the races stop being fun and we want to add an additional challenge and see how it goes.
Finally, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves on the whole "example of Tuna racing" thing. I think that's a great goal for this long term. But it certainly sets very high expectations. And we're just getting started. Lets run some races, see how it goes, tweak some things, see how it goes. And I think in time, you'll have a series here to be proud of.
My $0.02,
Michael
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Holy crap you people type a lot...UCan has competition here. Racing soft tires = tight/pack racing, predictable lines, safe side-by-side, finishing the race without spinning. That makes sense to me. 276hp-1300kg-450PP has been extensively tested and gives good competition. If everyone stays off the wall, I agree.
"Lets run some races, see how it goes, tweak some things, see how it goes. And I think in time, you'll have a series here to be proud of."
There's such thing as over thinking and over planning, especially in a non-point/series event. Much of this work has already been done. (thank you Michael) I wanna go fast. Let's race.
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Like Turbo said, don't over think this. We are well versed in setting up events like this, so forgive us if it appears we are trying to step on your toes. That is not our intent whatsoever. We are only trying to offer some friendly suggestions for things that most will not have experienced or thought of unless they have run a series or an regular on going event. We're weird that way.
I like that you are keeping it simple as this will make it a whole lot easier for anyone entering the room to grab a car, make some quick adjustments, and go. I also like that the car selection is open, for the most part. This will be a great weekly series once it gets rolling and I think it will attract a lot of drivers once the word gets out about it.
In the end, it's all just racing. The rest is just details. And nobody remembers the details once the green flag is waved. See you all Monday.
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As Feldynn mentioned, this combination produces a lot of cars that are remarkably close in terms of performance. If we were to tweak the settings, I'd like to find another full class of cars and target them, like we did here. For example, I'm already thinking about a V8 touring class that would include some of the American muscle cars against the V8 BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, etc (inspired by the some racing I watched over the weekend at the Virginia International Raceway (http://www.virnow.com/event/Bosch-Engineering-Grand-Am-Rolex-Sports-Car-Series-Continental-Tire-Series--Sat--SCCA-Pro-Trans-Am-Series--Sun--48).) I think that would give us a second really solid series with more HP and more weight that would include a whole new set of cars to try out.
If we want to try other combinations, that's fine too. But we've had good success building this around a set of cars that we want to race against one another. And there's a lot of testing that goes on to get it just right. That's all I wanted to mention.
I think that would be a great idea for building future events / series based off of this one, keep this as the lower power class then have another similar event for the higher power V8 types (in fact I quite like the sound of a V8 class!).
Tires. When I initially suggested Racing Soft as the standard, several folks mentioned mentioned that they thought that made the race too easy. I think we've all seen that, while it does give you more grip, that just allows you to go faster. And the softer rubber keeps things predictable in the corners. So you've got higher speeds in the corner with predictable lines. And this results in really tight racing, side by side, three or four wide. And it's just crazy fun. I raced last night with another group of guys. Feld was there. And this isn't a criticism of their event, it's just an observation. We raced on HSRR in the same cars ... S2000s and 350Zs. But we were on Sports Soft tires. I got lapped by the winner. I spun the car ... 5 times? 6? Not sure. Part of it was just bad driving on my part. But the entire field was spread out. And instead of racing each other, we were all (I think) trying like hell just to keep the car going in the right direction. It was not nearly as fun as when I have traction and I'm jockeying for position with another couple of drivers. So yes, Racing rubber is for beginners. But I suggest we try different tires after the races stop being fun and we want to add an additional challenge and see how it goes.
I would have to agree for the most part, I was running an '03 S2000 in that race and the car was quite difficult to control a lot of the time on the sports soft tires. It was partly a joke during the race but I actually found myself drifting around some corners, usually I was able to control the drift but I did spin out or hit the barrier more than once and I know Reject was really struggling. I did find a few FR cars had similar problems even on Racing Softs but it pretty much limited to that first corner and caused by coming in too fast or too high, rather than almost every corner with Sports Soft on the S2000. I will try running some of my other cars on Sports Softs just to see but I think running the Racing Softs would probably be fine for now, as Reject says I think the extra traction helps keep the racing that bit closer and I think also helps reduce the chance of high speed spin outs from contact during close racing.
I think Turbo hit the nail on the head too, and much more succinctly that my excessive verbage does :D.
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Awesome. I'll do a new thread for Monday's race as well if that's ok.
MS
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"I think Turbo hit the nail on the head too, and much more succinctly that my excessive verbage does"
lol That was for Dude 8) and I like summarizing long posts so that I'm clear on what's being said, and can be corrected if I missed the point. It may help others too.
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I like summarizing long posts so that I'm clear on what's being said, and can be corrected if I missed the point. It may help others too.
I'm glad you do. I must admit, I'm guilty of not reading long post as well. I figure if it's something I need to know, I'll find out in the Lounge. (http://i.imgur.com/LmjyBgx.gif)
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I will probably be on too late on Mondays to make the race, but I will enjoy all the practice I can find during the week. :)
Also, Thanks Turbo (http://i.imgur.com/LmjyBgx.gif)
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Ok,
So I started some testing on the V8 class of cars. My initial impression is that, once again, we have to leave out the MR cars. The Ford GT is just too fast. I did some testing with an '06 Vette, and it handled really nicely stock with just racing soft tires. Initial times on HSRR were in the 1:08 range. And there's probably room to improve there with more tuning.
At the moment, I'm looking at cars in the 1600kg and 550PP range. Cars I'm looking at include:
1. BMW M3
2. Chevy Corvette
3. Chevy Camaro SS
4. Ford Mustang
5. Dodge Viper (V8 only?)
That's as far as I've gotten with my testing so far. Don't have any hard and fast data yet. This is in the initial planning stages. So if you have thoughts on V8 (or higher) touring cars, let me know. I need more info on the European V8's out there.
Thanks,
MS
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Sounds interesting, as far as other V8s go off the top of my head there's the Jag XK Coupe Luxury and probably other jags, Aston Martin V8 Vantage and maybe others, also could look at Mercedes-Benz too (if not Premium then I'm fairly sure there are some V8 Standard cars).
I'll see if I can find and test out some actual cars from my ridiculous library of Standard cars and throw up some names / times :). Are those definitive numbers for weight and PP or still a floating target right now, and any thoughts on a max power yet?
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i have some lotus esprit v8's we can test out.
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Sounds interesting, as far as other V8s go off the top of my head there's the Jag XK Coupe Luxury and probably other jags, Aston Martin V8 Vantage and maybe others, also could look at Mercedes-Benz too (if not Premium then I'm fairly sure there are some V8 Standard cars).
I'll see if I can find and test out some actual cars from my ridiculous library of Standard cars and throw up some names / times :). Are those definitive numbers for weight and PP or still a floating target right now, and any thoughts on a max power yet?
Throw out everything you find. The goal will be to find a weight, hp and PP target that includes the most cars. So yeah, it's floating right now.
MS
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i have some lotus esprit v8's we can test out.
Il ove my V8 Esprit but isn't it a MR?
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Tires. When I initially suggested Racing Soft as the standard, several folks mentioned mentioned that they thought that made the race too easy. I think we've all seen that, while it does give you more grip, that just allows you to go faster. And the softer rubber keeps things predictable in the corners. So you've got higher speeds in the corner with predictable lines. And this results in really tight racing, side by side, three or four wide. And it's just crazy fun. I raced last night with another group of guys. Feld was there. And this isn't a criticism of their event, it's just an observation. We raced on HSRR in the same cars ... S2000s and 350Zs. But we were on Sports Soft tires. I got lapped by the winner. I spun the car ... 5 times? 6? Not sure. Part of it was just bad driving on my part. But the entire field was spread out. And instead of racing each other, we were all (I think) trying like hell just to keep the car going in the right direction. It was not nearly as fun as when I have traction and I'm jockeying for position with another couple of drivers. So yes, Racing rubber is for beginners. But I suggest we try different tires after the races stop being fun and we want to add an additional challenge and see how it goes.
Hey to be fair, those sports soft tires were picked to run on Tokyo R246 which has basically no banked turns, we just happened to bring those cars out to HSRR afterwords, where the track just threw them around like toys :)
And no offense or criticism taken badly, it takes all kinds! We've been purposely using semi-crappy tires in most of our events to try to build better drivers too. Learn to use the gas as throttle control instead of relying on tires or TCS! But it's certainly not for everyone, and I hope this didn't come off snotty/snarky :)
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I think these are all V8's. (I also thought all Vipers were V10's) I would suggest looking at a lower weight, but that's just my preference. myGranTurismo says most of these cars have under 550pp stock. (all specs approximate)
Vette ZR1, 650, 1500
SLR, 630, 1750
SLS, 570, 1625
V8 Vantage, 550, 1975
Z06 '06, 513, 1421
XFR, 510, 1975
XKR Coupe, 510, 1800
SL55, 500, 1950
California, 460, 1625
C63 AMG, 460, 1725
IS-F, 454, 1623
8C Comp, 452, 1585
Camaro, 435, 1755
Gran Turismo, 440, 1775
Challenger, 433, 1878
DB7, 430, 1775
M3 Coupe, 422, 1655
R8 4.2, 420, 1560
Z06 '04, 410, 1415
XKR R, 410, 1735
S-Type R, 400, 1800
Mustangs
ZR1 '90
XKR Coupe
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You could be right, I bought and parked them... I'll look tonight.
i have some lotus esprit v8's we can test out.
Il ove my V8 Esprit but isn't it a MR?
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Hey to be fair, those sports soft tires were picked to run on Tokyo R246 which has basically no banked turns, we just happened to bring those cars out to HSRR afterwords, where the track just threw them around like toys :)
And no offense or criticism taken badly, it takes all kinds! We've been purposely using semi-crappy tires in most of our events to try to build better drivers too. Learn to use the gas as throttle control instead of relying on tires or TCS! But it's certainly not for everyone, and I hope this didn't come off snotty/snarky :)
Busted. LOL. :o
Knew you'd probably see that. Well ... what can I say? No offense taken on my part either. It's all good. The point I was making is that when you design an event, there are many factors you have to take into consideration. And each event host kind of picks a style that they like. Your race, with the tire choice, was an extremely challenging race. And that's how you probably wanted it. If I had practiced to your specs more, I would have enjoyed it more. And that goes for any race. Unfortunately, I've been running around like a crazy person working on a variety of stuff, but for GT5 and otherwise. So my performance was my own fault.
My point is that in my race, I've chosen to use the best grip possible because I **want** the cars to group up on the track. In some ways, making it easier on the driver just changes the challenge. When the cars are grouped pretty tight, a whole new set of problems arise and strategy becomes key. And I enjoy those kinds of races, personally.
BTW, that's why I'm also trying to help each driver get into the 1'11"s. I want the winner to be decided on the final turn in the final straightaway. :D
MS
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Hey to be fair, those sports soft tires were picked to run on Tokyo R246 which has basically no banked turns, we just happened to bring those cars out to HSRR afterwords, where the track just threw them around like toys :)
And no offense or criticism taken badly, it takes all kinds! We've been purposely using semi-crappy tires in most of our events to try to build better drivers too. Learn to use the gas as throttle control instead of relying on tires or TCS! But it's certainly not for everyone, and I hope this didn't come off snotty/snarky :)
Busted. LOL. :o
Knew you'd probably see that. Well ... what can I say? No offense taken on my part either. It's all good. The point I was making is that when you design an event, there are many factors you have to take into consideration. And each event host kind of picks a style that they like. Your race, with the tire choice, was an extremely challenging race. And that's how you probably wanted it. If I had practiced to your specs more, I would have enjoyed it more. And that goes for any race. Unfortunately, I've been running around like a crazy person working on a variety of stuff, but for GT5 and otherwise. So my performance was my own fault.
My point is that in my race, I've chosen to use the best grip possible because I **want** the cars to group up on the track. In some ways, making it easier on the driver just changes the challenge. When the cars are grouped pretty tight, a whole new set of problems arise and strategy becomes key. And I enjoy those kinds of races, personally.
BTW, that's why I'm also trying to help each driver get into the 1'11"s. I want the winner to be decided on the final turn in the final straightaway. :D
MS
just bring a tow cable for me and then I'll be fine. :laugh :laugh :laugh :lolz
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i have some lotus esprit v8's we can test out.
Il ove my V8 Esprit but isn't it a MR?
Sadly it is :( .. especially since the premium sounds awesome!
Sounds interesting, as far as other V8s go off the top of my head there's the Jag XK Coupe Luxury and probably other jags, Aston Martin V8 Vantage and maybe others, also could look at Mercedes-Benz too (if not Premium then I'm fairly sure there are some V8 Standard cars).
I'll see if I can find and test out some actual cars from my ridiculous library of Standard cars and throw up some names / times :). Are those definitive numbers for weight and PP or still a floating target right now, and any thoughts on a max power yet?
Throw out everything you find. The goal will be to find a weight, hp and PP target that includes the most cars. So yeah, it's floating right now.
MS
I did a quick run through my Standard garage and I think you might have hit the nail on the head with the weight. 1600kg seems to be a pretty good number, I found about 17 cars (not counting the older classic American Muscle cars) with V8 engines (according to the description) that fall between about the 1400-2100kg mark so there's room for ballast padding and weight reduction.
I didn't check on HP or PP yet but I think we'll probably be looking at around 400-600 for both so again you might be on the money with 550pp, with the heaver weight bracket they'll need a lot of power to get going but may end up with a similar power:weight ratio as 276hp class :).
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I think these are all V8's. (I also thought all Vipers were V10's) I would suggest looking at a lower weight, but that's just my preference. myGranTurismo says most of these cars have under 550pp stock. (all specs approximate)
Vette ZR1, 650, 1500
SLR, 630, 1750
SLS, 570, 1625
V8 Vantage, 550, 1975
Z06 '06, 513, 1421
XFR, 510, 1975
XKR Coupe, 510, 1800
SL55, 500, 1950
California, 460, 1625
C63 AMG, 460, 1725
IS-F, 454, 1623
8C Comp, 452, 1585
Camaro, 435, 1755
Gran Turismo, 440, 1775
Challenger, 433, 1878
DB7, 430, 1775
M3 Coupe, 422, 1655
R8 4.2, 420, 1560
Z06 '04, 410, 1415
XKR R, 410, 1735
S-Type R, 400, 1800
Mustangs
ZR1 '90
XKR Coupe
Good list, thanks. You can only adjust weight up by 200kg. And isn't it about the same going down? Maybe 250kg or 300kg with weight reductions? So that Camaro could get down to about 1555kg or 1500kg. But then the KKR would be eliminated. You gotta pick a number in the middle there somewhere so that +/- 200kg includes the highest number of cars. And actually, 1700kg looks to be more in the middle.
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just bring a tow cable for me and then I'll be fine. :laugh :laugh :laugh (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/zLOL.gif)
I'll give you a push ...
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTA7UWYCyOxKRBBKedTnjTl02bIwEcIdGsX20neu_zNXhxk5GlKCQ)
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Whatever works. ;D
just bring a tow cable for me and then I'll be fine. :laugh :laugh :laugh (http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss272/james_mikel/STGT%20forum/zLOL.gif)
I'll give you a push ...
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTA7UWYCyOxKRBBKedTnjTl02bIwEcIdGsX20neu_zNXhxk5GlKCQ)
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Good list, thanks. You can only adjust weight up by 200kg. And isn't it about the same going down? Maybe 250kg or 300kg with weight reductions? So that Camaro could get down to about 1555kg or 1500kg. But then the KKR would be eliminated. You gotta pick a number in the middle there somewhere so that +/- 200kg includes the highest number of cars. And actually, 1700kg looks to be more in the middle.
If you mean the 2010 Camaro SS then it can have it's weight fully reduced (not counting the RM) down to 1318kg. I think the amount of weight reduction per stage varies depending on the car.
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Good list, thanks. You can only adjust weight up by 200kg. And isn't it about the same going down? Maybe 250kg or 300kg with weight reductions? So that Camaro could get down to about 1555kg or 1500kg. But then the KKR would be eliminated. You gotta pick a number in the middle there somewhere so that +/- 200kg includes the highest number of cars. And actually, 1700kg looks to be more in the middle.
If you mean the 2010 Camaro SS then it can have it's weight fully reduced (not counting the RM) down to 1318kg. I think the amount of weight reduction per stage varies depending on the car.
Wow, that's almost 400kg. So based on your findings, we could theoretically include cars whose initial weight is anywhere from 1400kg to 2000kg at the 1600kg mark? That's gonna be a lot of cars. Me likey.
MS
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I was going to mention the Camaro too Feldynn. Weight reduction on really heavy cars can have a huge impact. Most of the cars I've listed (I haven't tested the M-B's or the Audis) can get down under 1400kg. Now I'm not suggesting going that far, but IMO, lighter is better, so I mention the concept of less than 1600kg. Maybe 1450 or 1500. Whatever.
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I have been running the Merc's (SLS & C63 AMG) a lot the last week or so. They will both get down below 1400kg if I remember correctly.
Also, if you haven't picked up an SLS, do yourself a favor and buy that rocketship. Ran a :59.xxx at HSR last night.
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I was going to mention the Camaro too Feldynn. Weight reduction on really heavy cars can have a huge impact. Most of the cars I've listed (I haven't tested the M-B's or the Audis) can get down under 1400kg. Now I'm not suggesting going that far, but IMO, lighter is better, so I mention the concept of less than 1600kg. Maybe 1450 or 1500. Whatever.
All good info. Lighter cars are faster, for sure. Part of what's going to make this version of the Touring Challenge different is the bigger, heavier cars and more power. It's a variation on a theme. The theme in the other class is generally stock weights (although we don't restrict you from taking a car and dropping the weight to get to the target weight). Many of the cars, actually, have to add ballast to get to the target weight. This means that you can many times grab a car, throw on some parts, tune and drive. This also made my job of testing each of the cars on the track for comparison purposes a lot easier too (some of those weight reductions can get kinda pricey).
Just something to think about.
MS
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Based on the direction the discussion in this thread has taken, will the 2nd event consist of V8 powered front engine cars? Sounds like a lot of fun.
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Based on the direction the discussion in this thread has taken, will the 2nd event consist of V8 powered front engine cars? Sounds like a lot of fun.
We will run the V6 and under class for a while, don't know how many events. But there was talk of having different HP and weights for different races. I suggested that we target different classes of cars, do some testing, and then have those other options available when folks wanted a change. This is the second planned variation. There are no plans yet to run this race. It's still in the development phase. But thanks. Input is welcome.
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Here's a list of the Standard V8s that I've got with weight / pp according to myGranturismo.net ..
Holden Commodore SS '04 - 455pp, 334 HP, 1658kg
Holden Monaro CV8 '04 - 452pp, 334 HP, 1658 kg
Mercedes CLK 55 AMG '00 - 464pp, 353 HP, 1620 kg
Mercedes E 55 AMG '02 - 489pp, 477 HP, 1910 kg
Mercedes SL 500 (R129) '98 - 429pp, 307 HP, 1800 kg
Mercedes SL 500 (R230) '02 - 445pp, 307 HP, 1840 kg
Audi S4 '03 - 463pp, 345 HP, 1660 kg
Audi RS 6 '02 - 482pp, 468 HP, 1840 kg
Aston Martin V8 Vantage '99 - 502pp, 553 HP, 1970 kg
Jaguar S-TYPE R '02 - 474pp, 406 HP, 1800 kg
Jaguar XFR '10 - 488pp, 513 HP, 1960 kg
Jaguar XKR Coupe '99 - 468pp, 377 HP, 1640 kg
Jaguar XKR R Performance '02 - ??pp, 408 HP, 1735 kg
Jenson Interceptor MkIII '74 - 466pp, 392 HP, 1814 kg
Chrysler 300C '05 - ??pp, 346 HP, 1878 kg
Chevrolet Camaro SS '00 - 451pp, 325 HP, 1560 kg
Chevrolet Camaro Z28 Coupe '97 - 434pp, 290 HP, 1561 kg
Chevrolet Corvette GRAND SPORT (C4) '96 - 458pp, 336 HP, 1496 kg
Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1 (C4) '90 - 467pp, 386 HP, 1600 kg
Pontiac GTO 5.7 Coupe '04 - 464pp, 356 HP, 1690 kg
I'm sure there are a few more besides that but those are the ones I have so far, judging by the weights I think 1600kg isn't a bad number to aim because there's only a few cars that would need up to 104kg ballast added and the rest should need just a stage 1 or stage 2 weight reduction which I think is a similar spread to the 1300kg class for the other event.
Again just going on those basic numbers I'm thinking that maybe 550pp and 550-600hp could be around the general area to aim for, maybe even 600 for both but it'll become clearer once we get some actual testing number put up :).
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Great list Feld. How can you tell if they are a V8 on myGrandTurismo.net?
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Great list Feld. How can you tell if they are a V8 on myGrandTurismo.net?
I don't think you can.. I went through my garage checking the descriptions of cars in the general area of what we were looking for and snagged the weight / pp / hp info from the website :D.
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Well Feld,
We just need to pick a car that's kind of in the middle of the field and make that our benchmark. I'm leaning towards the BMW M5 as the benchmark? It would have to be drastically lightened. But I'm thinking that will be a nice middle of the road car in terms of HP and PP.
Edit: the M5 is 1855kg, 509hp and 513pp. The PP will go up a lot when you drop the weight. Don't know if this is a good idea or not.
Thoughts?
MS
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I think the M5 actually has a V10 engine unless I misread the description :D, but for what it's worth I just ran a clean lap with a Corvette ZR1 (C6) '09 (stock except for Racing: Soft tires and Height Adjustable suspension). At 1600kg, 550pp, 540hp I managed a clean lap of 1'05.950, I'm sure there's some room for improvement on that time though. Don't know if that helps us in terms of settling on numbers though, probably need to test a few other cars to see how they compare :).
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Feldynn is correct. The M5 is a v10.
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I think the M5 actually has a V10 engine unless I misread the description :D, but for what it's worth I just ran a clean lap with a Corvette ZR1 (C6) '09 (stock except for Racing: Soft tires and Height Adjustable suspension). At 1600kg, 550pp, 540hp I managed a clean lap of 1'05.950, I'm sure there's some room for improvement on that time though. Don't know if that helps us in terms of settling on numbers though, probably need to test a few other cars to see how they compare :).
During planning, we should test the V8's and V10's (and V12's for that matter) and see how they fall.
Edit: But yeah, you're right, the car that we're basing this off of should be a V8.
And I did a 1:06 in that Ford GT. Interesting.
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During planning, we should test the V8's and V10's (and V12's for that matter) and see how they fall.
Edit: But yeah, you're right, the car that we're basing this off of should be a V8.
And I did a 1:06 in that Ford GT. Interesting.
I think that's a great idea, the lower class was V6 and below so having this higher power one as V8 and above makes sense and also allows for more choice so long as we can find a happy medium with the power / weight / performance points and don't end up with a couple of overly dominant V12 models. Testing, testing and more testing :).
Also what are your thoughts on the Audi R8.. I noticed there's a V8 and V10 version but, while it's technically a 4WD car, isn't the engine mounted midship making it a mid-engined 4-wheel drive car?
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The Ford GT is mid engine as well as the Audi R8 and don't forget some of the Ferrari's and the Lambo's. Would be a shame to seem them sit on the sidelines because they are MR's ya know. Some guys like taking down the MR cars. I know i do. I vote to let them play.
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Good point, I'd forgotten about the Lambos! I think there is / was an initial concern that the mid-engined cars may have an advantage over front engined ones due to weight distribute and handling, that was something Reject discovered in the early testing for the 276hp event (particularly I think NSXs and MR2s were somewhat faster than the majority of FF / FR / 4WD cars tested). Provided we can get the restrictions right and they don't prove to have too much of an advantage I'm all for allowing them :).
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Some initial quick tests using Racing: Soft tires..
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) '09 - Height Adjustable Suspension
540hp, 1600kg, 550pp - 1'05.950
Ford GT - Height Adjustable Suspension
512Hp, 1600kg, 550pp - 1'04.820
Mercedes C 63 AMG - Height Adjustable Suspension, Sport Exhaust, Sports Cat, Stage 2 Turbo + Racing Air Filter or Stage 3 Turbo / no filter
538hp, 1600kg, 550pp - 1'06.8xx - (mods = stage 2 turbo + filter)
620hp, 1600kg, 550pp - 1'06.2xx - (mods = Stage 3 turbo)
Note: Wheel spin on most corners even with TC-5 (forgot to reset it), horrible oversteer on banked corners, LSD and ridiculous wing might help. Could do better once tamed.
I know it's early but working with the 1600kg / 550pp so far seems to be good, not sure about a hard cap for power yet but it might even be worth leaving that open.
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As for letting the MRs into the race ... lets test them and see how much of a difference there is. If it's not too bad, I'll probably respond one way. If it's substantial, I'll probably vote another way. :)
MS
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And one other quick observation ... there may be actually two potential V8 divisions ... one around 1500kg and one around 1800kg with two distinct sets of cars. We may not find a setting that fits all cars. Just saying. :)
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Have you considered nerfing the MR cars in some way? Maybe force them to add some weight or run at a lower PP? I know this just creates more work/testing but it might be worth it in the long run to add more variety to the eligible car list.
I freely admit that this is also a selfish request as I highly prefer to use MR cars. It's what I use probably 95% of the time when I have the option to do so. :)
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And one other quick observation ... there may be actually two potential V8 divisions ... one around 1500kg and one around 1800kg with two distinct sets of cars. We may not find a setting that fits all cars. Just saying. :)
I like the idea of maybe 2 divisions, perhaps rather than split engines we could do it on car style, like one group for high powered 4+ seaters (2 or 4 door or wagons too maybe, like the M3, M5, RS6 Avant, etc and maybe some slower / heavier coupes) and one for the faster 2 seater and 2+2 coupes including MR cars (like the Vettes, Ford GT, faster Ferraris, TVRs, Lotus and such). Only down side might be we'd have to put together a list of cars for each group or at least a list of exceptions like say have the Camaro and Challenger SRT8 running with the 4 seaters rather than the 2+2s due to their weight.
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If I could chime in for a bit...
Why not run the MR vehicles separately in their own class another time? If MR cars are allowed I wouldn't be surprised to see everyone using them after they do some comparison testing :P
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If I could chime in for a bit...
Why not run the MR vehicles separately in their own class another time? If MR cars are allowed I wouldn't be surprised to see everyone using them after they do some comparison testing :P
That's kind of what I was thinking. Or, if you have two divisions, have one of the divisions setup in such a way that all the MR cars fall into it naturally and allow all ... then it turns into a MR race by attrition. :)
mS
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If I could chime in for a bit...
Why not run the MR vehicles separately in their own class another time? If MR cars are allowed I wouldn't be surprised to see everyone using them after they do some comparison testing :P
That's kind of what I was thinking. Or, if you have two divisions, have one of the divisions setup in such a way that all the MR cars fall into it naturally and allow all ... then it turns into a MR race by attrition. :)
mS
Until some fool like me joins the race in an oddball FR or even FF car :D.
On a serious note though, maybe around a 1300kg / 550pp class aimed at the lighter / faster MR, FR and 4WD coupe types (Ferraris, Lambos, Corvettes, TVRs, Lotus, etc) and a 1700kg / 550pp class aimed at the larger / heavier sports coupes and "family" cars (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar, etc) with some degree of cross-over depending on testing results.
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Until some fool like me joins the race in an oddball FR or even FF car :D.
On a serious note though, maybe around a 1300kg / 550pp class aimed at the lighter / faster MR, FR and 4WD coupe types (Ferraris, Lambos, Corvettes, TVRs, Lotus, etc) and a 1700kg / 550pp class aimed at the larger / heavier sports coupes and "family" cars (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Jaguar, etc) with some degree of cross-over depending on testing results.
Yeah man, I think you're on to something there.
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I got to thinking about the numbers again after looking at some cars I see being put in the 1300kg / 550pp class I can see how some might say 550pp is a bit low because some of the top end super cars are close to or even slightly over 550pp and weigh around 1500kg straight off the lot. I do plan on running some tests but the reason I started out looking at 550pp is to give some of the less "super" cars a chance of being upgraded to tangle with the big boys but limiting the really big boys so they don't get too over powered and clean house.
That way we might end up with some Lambo Vs. Evo battles (ala Top Gear, if anyone remembers that episode) and such.
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So I decided to run some practice laps in a handful of cars I had in my garage, the cars themselves are somewhat out of tune (ba dum tisch? :) ) like I brought them for certain events and just threw random mods at them. For the purposes of the tests I was aiming for 1300kg and 550pp so I threw on some weight reduction and various power mods and fiddled with the power limiter until I got there, some had full suspensions and wings, some had the cheap suspensions and no wing, a couple even had just about every possible addon you can buy and all cars were running Racing: Soft tires.
So take these numbers with the proverbial grain of salt as there's likely a lot of tuning to be done and driving skill improvement that will garner better times.
TVR Tuscan Speed 6 - 1300kg, 558hp, 548PP - 1'05.4xx
Has potential, even suffered from some understeer but had full +200kg ballast.
Chevrolet Camaro '10 - 1318kg, 493hp, 550PP - 1'05.2xx
Surprising car, has most mods including aero, needs a little tuning.
Lamborghini Murcielago - 1350kg, 512hp, 550PP - 1'09.xxx
Had aero parts but comedy oversteer on banked turns, needs suspension + tuning, didn't get a good lap.
Lamborghini Gallardo - 1360kg, 500hp, 550PP - 1'05.2xx
Had aero + some mods, slight understeer at times, quick on the straights, solid car.
Ferrari F430 Scuderia - 1350kg, 487hp, 550PP - 1'05.9xx
Had some aero parts, needs tuning (possibly suspension).
Ferrari F430 - 1334kg, 493hp, 550PP - 1'05.6xx
Needs some mods + tuning.
Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 (C6) - 1357kg, 485hp, 550PP - 1'05.056
Almost no mods, could benefit from suspension + tuning, solid car.
Ford GT - 1334kg, 447hp, 550PP - 1'04.3xx
Needs a suspension, possibly LSD, surprisingly nimble, solid car.
Lotus Esprit V8 - 1300kg, 545hp, 547PP - 1'05.1xx
Had most mods but may need ridiculous wing, needs tuning.
Like I say, these are just rough numbers and the cars I tested weren't modded to an even level (beyond the weight / pp targets) so there's plenty of room for improvement and I'm sure I could've probably got better times if I'd done more laps with each car even without tuning.
I do think that 1300kg and 550PP are good numbers though and while there are tons more cars to look at I'm tempted to suggest a 550hp limit too. I know the Lotus Esprit maxed out at 545hp and the TVR Tuscan Speed 6 at 558hp with all the power mods yet both came in just under the 550pp limit, so there may be some other cars that might come in with even more power but not break 550PP.
Food for thought :-\.
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So I've been throwing a few more cars around the HSRR at both 1300kg and 1700kg weights and 550pp and I think I've stumbled on a conclusion, or perhaps just a confusion :). I'm kind of getting the feeling that, while I'm seeing fairly even laptimes (1'04.xxx to 1'06.xxx), rather than having a balanced field of cars with a lot of choices it's actually holding back some of the more powerful cars.
Case in point, the best time I've gotten so far was a 1'04.003 with a Zonda C12S 7.3 weighing 1300kg but I also ran a 1'05.5xx with a Chrysler 300C and Mercedes C 63 AMG weighing 1700kg (all three with some minor tuning). Somehow it just doesn't seem quite right to have a pantomime supercar like the Zonda going only 1.5 seconds faster than the great lumbering hulk of a 300C.
So I got to thinking that rather than having two different weight classes with the same PP it might be better to have something like a Grand Touring class (1300kg / 550pp seems good for this so far as my lap times are showing, even if some heavier cars can only get down to 1400-1500kg) for the high end sports coupes / sedans and a Supercar Touring class (with say just a 600pp limit) for the proper supercars. That way the proper supercars like the top end Ferraris, Lambos, Ford GT, Corvette ZR1 (C6), Zonda C12S 7.3, RUFs, etc won't get crammed into quite such a restrictive box just to be alongside "regular" cars.
Thoughts, comments, donkeys? :)
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My thoughts. I know I said lighter is better, but I'll try to help out the original concept.
All the cars I list will be unavailable if the limit is 1400kg (3080 pounds) - even with full ballast
The bottom half will be unavailable if the limit is 1300kg (2860 pounds) - even with full ballast
BTR
Yellowbird
McLaren F1
3 TVRs
-Countach '74
-Tommy ZZII
-Shelby Cobra
-3 TVRs
These are the only Relevant real street cars I could find at low weight, and they're not all V8's.
Honestly, I don't think that is a big sacrifice to make for the heavier class, and it might even the weight field a bit. Most supercars, including Zondas, could still have weight added to make 1400kg. My point is that most performance cars are heavier, so a low weight limit (under 3000lbs ~ 1365kg) isn't really necessary. 1400 would be my recommendation, 1500 would be reasonable, and 1600...hell that's heavier that frickin NASCAR man, think about it. :o :laugh :D ;)
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My thoughts. I know I said lighter is better, but I'll try to help out the original concept.
All the cars I list will be unavailable if the limit is 1400kg (3080 pounds) - even with full ballast
The bottom half will be unavailable if the limit is 1300kg (2860 pounds) - even with full ballast
BTR
Yellowbird
McLaren F1
3 TVRs
-Countach '74
-Tommy ZZII
-Shelby Cobra
-3 TVRs
These are the only Relevant real street cars I could find at low weight, and they're not all V8's.
Honestly, I don't think that is a big sacrifice to make for the heavier class, and it might even the weight field a bit. Most supercars, including Zondas, could still have weight added to make 1400kg. My point is that most performance cars are heavier, so a low weight limit (under 3000lbs ~ 1365kg) isn't really necessary. 1400 would be my recommendation, 1500 would be reasonable, and 1600...hell that's heavier that frickin NASCAR man, think about it. :o :laugh :D ;)
I've been thinking about this some more. And the bit in red is what concerns me. This is supposed to be a touring race. You don't typically see Zondas in a touring race. And yes, 1600kg is heavier than NASCAR. But NASCAR uses race cars, not touring cars. If we aren't careful, this race will turn into exotics vs. supercars. That's not to say that wouldn't be fun (because it would!!), it just would be a different type of race.
More to think about.
MS
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So I ran a few laps around the Practice Mode HSRR (with grip set to Real) with a Lamborghini Murcielago, Ford GT, Mercedes C 63 AMG and Jaguar XK Coupe Luxury, all at 1500kg (except the C 63 was 1557kg) and 550pp. With just some minor tuning to reduce the comedy oversteer on banked turns I found the Lambo and Ford GT were lapping low 1'04s with ease but the Merc and Jag ran low 1'05s and it was a struggle all the way.
Granted I'm sure some of the struggle could be tuned out of the Merc / Jag but if they can be improved I wouldn't doubt the other two could be made even better as well, I know for sure I didn't get the best out of any of them though since I'm just an average driver at best and would have marginally more success setting up a tent than a car suspension :D.
I do like the sound of a 1500kg (or even 1600kg) weight range and while I'd rather not exclude any type of car I have a feeling that if we want this to be more of a Touring style event (like the 276hp class, with a variety of competitive cars / drivetrains / body styles) then we're going to have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. My worry is that if we don't then it'll become somewhat of a one horse race, not that there won't be different cars out there just that they could end up being only the supercar types rather than a mix of 2-door coupes, 4-door businessman cars, high end convertibles and even some hatchbacks, because to be honest the supercars handle so much better right from the get go why choose anything less.
As I said in an earlier post, if we do decide to separate the cars out some it's a great opportunity for an instant 3rd class. That being one entirely for the supercars that can have less restrictions so they can really show off their power and handling, and if anyone can tune up some of the lesser cars to be competitive with them then more's the better. Like I say I don't want to exclude supercars, I just think they're so awesome they deserve their own competitive series :D.
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:stoopid:
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Yes, supercars, MR cars and 2 seater high performance sports cars 'deserve' a class of their own. Feldynn's testing of those 4 cars shows the difference.
I filtered through a car list and put the result in it's own spreadsheet. (do with this sheet as you please) Summary of results...
I separated cars into 3 classes. Touring 6, Touring 8 (they might go together), and Sport.
Touring 6 and 8 are mostly performance coupes/sedans - they have back seats. The lightest one is the M3 GTR at 1350 kg. (could be boosted to 1550) There are no MR/RR cars here. There are also not many in my list.
Sport is pure sports cars, mostly high performance, anything goes (I used min weight 1200kg) Most of these have no back seats. (I put some cars in here that some might think are Touring)
I think these numbers are all nice, but testing is where the real answer is (thank you Feldynn), which I haven't done. Ultimately, any weight would work, so do testing, perhaps with some help, and see where it leads.
[attachment deleted during "purge" by admin]
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Awesome work Turbo. You rock.
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Awesome work TurboTuna! Very impressive database.
However, there is one thing I take issue with. I don't think the M3 GTR belongs in either Touring category. It is a stripped down version of the regular M3, only 10 were produced for homologation purposes, and it does not have a rear seat. New it cost over $200,000.
Seems like an entirely different beast to me!
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I'd just like to add, in defense of MR cars, that my M3 (FR) was running faster than them at HSR. I was running 1' 10.4xx" As for real road courses, I'm not sure how it will play out.
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Excellent spreadsheet Turbo, thanks!
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Rated, I bet if you got a '97 or later NSX set to these specs and spent an hour testing it, you could hit 1'09.xxx without a draft. :o
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Rated, I bet if you got a '97 or later NSX set to these specs and spent an hour testing it, you could hit 1'09.xxx without a draft. :o
May be possible. The one at Mnday nights race was the premium '91 Acura NSX. Eggs brought the Clio and was up front with it as well.
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I did manage to get a fastest lap in Practice Mode of 1'09.xxx with an NSX Type S Zero but it did have some handling problems, which we now know how to combat, and that was a good second faster than the best lap I'd got with anything else just doing practice laps.
Speaking of the Clio though, I actually thought that was a pretty good car and even though it is MR it was competitive with everything else but didn't drive off into the sunset like the NSX did in my testing. I remember Eggs' one in the races now (and I think there was a white one too maybe), had a great battle for position with him and some of the RIP gold chrome cars too if I remember right.
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You know ... this is SupaTuna ... we can wing it for a week. Want to allow MR next race? We can. I'll be driving an NSX.
MS
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:o
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I took a proper look through Turbo's list (thankyou so much again for putting the list together Turbo!!) as well as my garage and the Dealerships and added another 10 or so cars that I think might also be good. Assuming that the Touring 8 and Touring 6 classes are essentially V8 / V6 engines I added some to both but some of the Touring 6 ones are actually Inline 6 engines, but I think they could do well.
Looking down the weight list I'm thinking that a 1600kg limit may be the best goal, it will unfortunately knock out two BMWs (the M3 GTR and CSL, highlighted yellow on the sheet) but if we combine the Touring 6 and 8 classes there's still a good 40 odd cars to choose from and probably a few more besides that aren't on that list yet. There may well be some cross over from the 1300kg / 276hp Touring Challenge too, though it would probably mean buying new versions for the higher weight limit.
So we'd be looking at something like 1600kg, 550pp, Inline 6 to V8 engine group with no supercars? If that sounds reasonable I've got no problems throwing some money at cars and running some more laps :). Also hopefully I managed to attach a new version of Turbo's spreadsheet with the additions I made.
[attachment deleted during "purge" by admin]
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I need a little time to stew this over.
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Would a price cap knock out some of the NSXs? I know they are usually 75k and up, even used. I'm surprised I didn't see and Lotus' Monday which I would have thought, as always would dominate. I didn't test one for myself, but a couple of my team mates took the RX-8 over the Evora and Elise. Maybe it was handling issues.
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Awesome work TurboTuna! Very impressive database.
However, there is one thing I take issue with. I don't think the M3 GTR belongs in either Touring category. It is a stripped down version of the regular M3, only 10 were produced for homologation purposes, and it does not have a rear seat. New it cost over $200,000.
Seems like an entirely different beast to me!
that was very PC of them.
(http://i.imgur.com/3nTTCQs.jpg)
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Awesome work TurboTuna! Very impressive database.
However, there is one thing I take issue with. I don't think the M3 GTR belongs in either Touring category. It is a stripped down version of the regular M3, only 10 were produced for homologation purposes, and it does not have a rear seat. New it cost over $200,000.
Seems like an entirely different beast to me!
Not to mention the V8 in it is the same V8 they used in the GTR Race Car. I haven't tried to tone it down for any specs but I'm sure it is the beast out of all e46 models in the game. Chasis definitely feels more rigid then others.
The CSL is only a track ready version of the standard M3, stripped of weight and a little bit more power.