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Author Topic: TunaPitReject's Touring Planning Thread (Not a Race Thread, Planning Only)  (Read 5618 times)

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TunaPitReject

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2011, 04:27:13 PM »

I like the idea of running HSR in both directions, from an online noob's perspective I found the practice sessions we ran the other week to be a great introduction to online racing as well as the Tuna folks I met there (in fact that was how I found out about this place!).

Yeah, I couldn't believe that was your first time racing online. You were fast from the get go.    ;)
 
:jimi:
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UCanTuna

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2011, 07:42:02 PM »

Okay... to recap:

It looks like we're cooking up a regular Monday night event involving street cars tuned to specs to be run on HSR until the cows come home. Something that will serve as an introductory event to Tuna-style fun racing. I like it. And for now it will simply be posted up as an announcement in Online Events here with a matching announcement over on PSN. I like that, too.

Reading back through the posts I see some suggestions worthy of consideration. Alternating Forward and Reverse on HSR is a good one. That provides two different flavors of what has always been our favorite track.

I'd like to harken back to the days of Prologue by setting different PP and drive train specs each week. Anything from 450PP on up to 700 and mix it up by running FR, FF, and AWD on different weeks. Not necessarily change that up every week, but not run the same types of cars week after week either.

I also love the idea of a "run what ya brung" mentality by allowing a lot of flexibility in setting up the cars within the parmaters. But we've learned PP is not a reliable guideline when it comes to comparing cars, so we might consider including a limited range for power/weight ratio. I'm sure guys smarter than me have already looked at it, but it strikes me that cars running at 450PP are going to have a higher P/W number than cars running at 500PP. At least, I thinks so. Help me out here... I'm just trying to find a way that ensures guys can grab cars that will run well with each other without telling them what to bring.

What else? What else? Locked on R3 tires? We might want to loosen up on that in the future but I'm good with it for now. Some cars on too much tire can be boring, although that changes when you get a group of them running together. Just thinking out loud here.

Good stuff.

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Turbo-Tuna

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2011, 08:01:40 PM »

For those who haven't looked at PP much, 600PP gets you a seriously fast street car. Probably a 600hp car, and probably under 1300kg. 650pp is a modded super car. 450 seems to be the starting point (around 276hp/1300kg), and I would suggest putting the cap at 550PP. That can get you a very fun 1200kg street car. Remember, this is introductory racing, originally designed to be a low powered touring racing.

My preference is faster car = better tire.
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UCanTuna

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2011, 08:05:00 PM »

For those who haven't looked at PP much, 600PP gets you a seriously fast street car.

See? Didn't take long for a guy smarter than me to speak up. :)

So, maybe 700PP is a little ambitious.
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Feldynn

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2011, 09:54:20 PM »

Regarding the regulations and drivetrains, going by Reject's early guildlines and using all 3 major values (i.e. 276hp / 450pp / 1300kg) I've found a veritable plethora of different cars that can post competitive times.  Given the flexibility of tuning options for this race (i.e. can add weight / reduce HP to meet targets) it might be worth sticking to those 3 target numbers rather than trying to find one "golden stat" to judge things by. 

Granted if all the cars weigh about 1300kg and have about 276hp the power:weight ratio will be pretty similar across the board but I think by restricting the power and weight to set numbers it makes the field of possible cars that much more even, if we went just on say the power:weight ratio then we might end up with a tricked out Caterham Seven Fireblade against a Ferrari Enzo (which I admit might actually be an interesting race but hopefully gets my point across :) ).

Also I think drivetrain wise having all cars with similar weight / hp really helps even the playing field, I've been testing quite a wide variety of cars and with the exception of a few MR cars (I think both Reject and I found that the NSX and MR2 were putting out significantly better lap times though were tough to control) the majority of FF, FR and 4WD cars I've tried to date were posting similar times.  The average being about 1:11.5 to 1:12.5 on a good lap, some were a bit faster and a few where a bit slower but generally most cars fell in that range for me.  I'm not saying we shouldn't do just FF one week then FR the next, just that for an introductory "run wot chabrung" race setting limits for hp, weight and PP together will give people a lot of variety / choice to still be competitive rather than everyone ending up in the same few cars.

And I think that showed in the practice seeions we had last week.  As an example of that I think on one of the first sessions Reject (I think?) and I had a pretty close battle, he was driving a Honda S2000 with a massive wing while I was driving a crusty old 1990 Nissan Primera.  The next day we had a DeLorean, R34 (I think) Skyline and a Nissan 300ZX running nose to tail almost the entire 10 laps of the race. 

Not that I've got anything against faster cars though, in fact I'd love to run some races in higher HP / PP production car brackets as well as the lower powered race cars (like the GT300 type level) though I'm really quite terrible with anything much over about 600hp.. I can't race LeMans cars to save my life!
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UCanTuna

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2011, 06:51:16 AM »

I think you're on to something. If we can keep the parameters simple and consistent that makes it much easier for someone to grab a car and jump in the water, as it were.

An underlying goal in all our racing events back in Prologue was to create pack racing. Our wrules and wrinkles, car/track choices, and provided tunes were all aimed at getting cars and drivers running close lap times, and thus close races. Everything was a "suggestion" and most people followed them and we've had some great times. We found that a hard fought race for 6th place can be just as much fun and rewarding as shooting for a podium finish.

HSR lends itself to pack racing very well, and we've learned if you can get two different cars turning lap times within a second of each other they will race very well together. We used to set everything up to level the playing field as much as possible to force the issue, and even through in wrinkles to handicap the fast guys in an effort to keep them from running away from the field. Just ask hey. He was always my benchmark and I even went so far as to write in specific instructions aimed at him alone. Sometimes they worked but usually he just outdrove us anyway.

The point being, folks always enjoyed it when we opened things up and let them bring their own cars and setups.
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LooneyTuna

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2011, 07:12:19 AM »

I really like the idea of being able to bring whatever you want within the :rulez . It is always cool to see lots of different cars out there competing. I do realize that it is hard to get many cars to be even. Maybe prepare three cars within spec to use. One or two really different ones and one "go to car". This way some unsuspecting cars may be discovered.
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TunaPitReject

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2011, 07:25:05 AM »

I think you're on to something. If we can keep the parameters simple and consistent that makes it much easier for someone to grab a car and jump in the water, as it were.

An underlying goal in all our racing events back in Prologue was to create pack racing. Our wrules and wrinkles, car/track choices, and provided tunes were all aimed at getting cars and drivers running close lap times, and thus close races. Everything was a "suggestion" and most people followed them and we've had some great times. We found that a hard fought race for 6th place can be just as much fun and rewarding as shooting for a podium finish.

HSR lends itself to pack racing very well, and we've learned if you can get two different cars turning lap times within a second of each other they will race very well together. We used to set everything up to level the playing field as much as possible to force the issue, and even through in wrinkles to handicap the fast guys in an effort to keep them from running away from the field. Just ask hey. He was always my benchmark and I even went so far as to write in specific instructions aimed at him alone. Sometimes they worked but usually he just outdrove us anyway.

The point being, folks always enjoyed it when we opened things up and let them bring their own cars and setups.

That's been my goal from the beginning. Lots of good ideas and suggestions here. Some of the folks here may have missed some of the planning discussion on the PSN around this. So let me see if I can level set the group on what I was going for.

Just as you mention UCan, I've always enjoyed races with a low barrier to entry. Part of what creates a low barrier to entry is having cars already setup and ready to go for a particular race. I designed this set of weight, hp and PP requirements around a couple cars. I wanted to see S2000's vs. 350Z's vs. BMWs. That was my target. So the hp and PP are based off a mostly stock S2000. And the weight was raised to be able to include some of the heavier cars like the Z and the smaller BMWs. That gives us our target range for a touring class of car that any one of us could possibly purchase and drive in real life.

Then came the question of mods. There are lots of ways to skin this cat. And some are better than others. But I've found, no matter how you slice it, there's always going to be one or two cars that are just better for a given track, either because they have more torque or because they just naturally handle better. There's no getting around that. So rather than spending weeks trying to make it fair, I decided to embrace it. I took a couple of weeks and drove every single car I could get my hands on that fit the category. Then I posted my results for all to see. That way everyone knows which cars are fastest. And then I just threw it out there ... are you chicken? Can you handle driving a car that may not be the fastest on the track? And can you win anyways? Can you find a way to tune it so that it's competitive?

And what I've found is that simple challenge to people's manhood resulted in a LOT of variety on the track. It was really nice, actually. Sure, when you've lost the last three races, you may decide to show up in the fastest car. But you're basically saying ... I can't do it with my driving alone. And that's ok.

As Feldynn mentioned, this combination produces a lot of cars that are remarkably close in terms of performance. If we were to tweak the settings, I'd like to find another full class of cars and target them, like we did here. For example, I'm already thinking about a V8 touring class that would include some of the American muscle cars against the V8 BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, etc (inspired by the some racing I watched over the weekend at the Virginia International Raceway.) I think that would give us a second really solid series with more HP and more weight that would include a whole new set of cars to try out.

If we want to try other combinations, that's fine too. But we've had good success building this around a set of cars that we want to race against one another. And there's a lot of testing that goes on to get it just right. That's all I wanted to mention.

Tires. When I initially suggested Racing Soft as the standard, several folks mentioned mentioned that they thought that made the race too easy. I think we've all seen that, while it does give you more grip, that just allows you to go faster. And the softer rubber keeps things predictable in the corners. So you've got higher speeds in the corner with predictable lines. And this results in really tight racing, side by side, three or four wide. And it's just crazy fun. I raced last night with another group of guys. Feld was there. And this isn't a criticism of their event, it's just an observation. We raced on HSRR in the same cars ... S2000s and 350Zs. But we were on Sports Soft tires. I got lapped by the winner. I spun the car ... 5 times? 6? Not sure. Part of it was just bad driving on my part. But the entire field was spread out. And instead of racing each other, we were all (I think) trying like hell just to keep the car going in the right direction. It was not nearly as fun as when I have traction and I'm jockeying for position with another couple of drivers. So yes, Racing rubber is for beginners. But I suggest we try different tires after the races stop being fun and we want to add an additional challenge and see how it goes.

Finally, I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves on the whole "example of Tuna racing" thing. I think that's a great goal for this long term. But it certainly sets very high expectations. And we're just getting started. Lets run some races, see how it goes, tweak some things, see how it goes. And I think in time, you'll have a series here to be proud of.

My $0.02,

Michael
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Turbo-Tuna

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Re: Mike's Monday Touring Event
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2011, 08:17:40 AM »

Holy crap you people type a lot...UCan has competition here. Racing soft tires = tight/pack racing, predictable lines, safe side-by-side, finishing the race without spinning. That makes sense to me. 276hp-1300kg-450PP has been extensively tested and gives good competition. If everyone stays off the wall, I agree.

"Lets run some races, see how it goes, tweak some things, see how it goes. And I think in time, you'll have a series here to be proud of."

There's such thing as over thinking and over planning, especially in a non-point/series event. Much of this work has already been done. (thank you Michael) I wanna go fast. Let's race.
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DesertSniper72

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Re: Mike's Monday Touring Event
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2011, 08:39:04 AM »

Like Turbo said, don't over think this. We are well versed in setting up events like this, so forgive us if it appears we are trying to step on your toes. That is not our intent whatsoever. We are only trying to offer some friendly suggestions for things that most will not have experienced or thought of unless they have run a series or an regular on going event. We're weird that way.

I like that you are keeping it simple as this will make it a whole lot easier for anyone entering the room to grab a car, make some quick adjustments, and go. I also like that the car selection is open, for the most part. This will be a great weekly series once it gets rolling and I think it will attract a lot of drivers once the word gets out about it.

In the end, it's all just racing. The rest is just details. And nobody remembers the details once the green flag is waved. See you all Monday.
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Feldynn

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Re: TunaPit Touring Challenge
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2011, 08:43:58 AM »


As Feldynn mentioned, this combination produces a lot of cars that are remarkably close in terms of performance. If we were to tweak the settings, I'd like to find another full class of cars and target them, like we did here. For example, I'm already thinking about a V8 touring class that would include some of the American muscle cars against the V8 BMWs, Audis, Mercedes, etc (inspired by the some racing I watched over the weekend at the Virginia International Raceway.) I think that would give us a second really solid series with more HP and more weight that would include a whole new set of cars to try out.

If we want to try other combinations, that's fine too. But we've had good success building this around a set of cars that we want to race against one another. And there's a lot of testing that goes on to get it just right. That's all I wanted to mention.

I think that would be a great idea for building future events / series based off of this one, keep this as the lower power class then have another similar event for the higher power V8 types (in fact I quite like the sound of a V8 class!).  

Tires. When I initially suggested Racing Soft as the standard, several folks mentioned mentioned that they thought that made the race too easy. I think we've all seen that, while it does give you more grip, that just allows you to go faster. And the softer rubber keeps things predictable in the corners. So you've got higher speeds in the corner with predictable lines. And this results in really tight racing, side by side, three or four wide. And it's just crazy fun. I raced last night with another group of guys. Feld was there. And this isn't a criticism of their event, it's just an observation. We raced on HSRR in the same cars ... S2000s and 350Zs. But we were on Sports Soft tires. I got lapped by the winner. I spun the car ... 5 times? 6? Not sure. Part of it was just bad driving on my part. But the entire field was spread out. And instead of racing each other, we were all (I think) trying like hell just to keep the car going in the right direction. It was not nearly as fun as when I have traction and I'm jockeying for position with another couple of drivers. So yes, Racing rubber is for beginners. But I suggest we try different tires after the races stop being fun and we want to add an additional challenge and see how it goes.

I would have to agree for the most part, I was running an '03 S2000 in that race and the car was quite difficult to control a lot of the time on the sports soft tires.  It was partly a joke during the race but I actually found myself drifting around some corners, usually I was able to control the drift but I did spin out or hit the barrier more than once and I know Reject was really struggling.  I did find a few FR cars had similar problems even on Racing Softs but it pretty much limited to that first corner and caused by coming in too fast or too high, rather than almost every corner with Sports Soft on the S2000.  I will try running some of my other cars on Sports Softs just to see but I think running the Racing Softs would probably be fine for now, as Reject says I think the extra traction helps keep the racing that bit closer and I think also helps reduce the chance of high speed spin outs from contact during close racing.

I think Turbo hit the nail on the head too, and much more succinctly that my excessive verbage does :D.
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TunaPitReject

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Re: Mike's Monday Touring Event
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2011, 09:03:13 AM »

Awesome. I'll do a new thread for Monday's race as well if that's ok.

MS
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Turbo-Tuna

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Re: Mike's Monday Touring Event
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2011, 10:03:23 AM »

"I think Turbo hit the nail on the head too, and much more succinctly that my excessive verbage does"

lol That was for Dude  8) and I like summarizing long posts so that I'm clear on what's being said, and can be corrected if I missed the point. It may help others too.
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ChromeTuna

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Re: Mike's Monday Touring Event
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2011, 10:13:43 AM »


 I like summarizing long posts so that I'm clear on what's being said, and can be corrected if I missed the point. It may help others too.

I'm glad you do. I must admit, I'm guilty of not reading long post as well. I figure if it's something I need to know, I'll find out in the Lounge.
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DudeTuna

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Re: Mike's Monday Touring Event
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2011, 11:39:28 AM »

I will probably be on too late on Mondays to make the race, but I will enjoy all the practice I can find during the week. :)




Also, Thanks Turbo 
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